Elections can no longer be free and fair, we need a transition govt - Besigye

FDC recently launched its party policy agenda in a well-attended event at Kampala Serena Hotel and there have been positive reviews of the event. How far do you think this will take the party and the Opposition in general?
First of all it is not a new party platform. As the party president, Gen Mugisha Muntu, said in his introduction, it is a review of the policy agenda that was there so we only reviewed and re-launched but the main thrust is to raise the visibility of the party platform so everybody knows it is there. There has been an incessant campaign of falsehood that FDC has no policies and it operates on hatred of Museveni which is nonsense because many of the policies NRM adopted were never theirs, including Universal Primary Education (UPE).

What fortunes does it bring to the party?
As to the fortunes it brings I don’t think it means much because policies have always been there. After the 1996 elections people realised that it is not what they think that determines what happens. For them to gain interest in the policy agenda they should have the perception that it has chance of guiding the country. For now, people think elections are a formality and the regime has again invested heavily in instilling and entrenching that feeling. Museveni himself has been boastful that pieces of paper cannot remove him. What he calls pieces of paper are people’s voices.

Your hope in the electoral reforms is waning. What does it mean for the reforms? Should people give up?
It means that the momentum to get reforms must come from outside the regime because Parliament as an institution, the Executive or Cabinet or whatever, are bodies that use delegated power. They don’t have inherent power of their own. Now if they abdicate their responsibility of doing what is in the interest of those they are supposed to serve, then it becomes incumbent upon those who delegated them to take back their power and solve the problem they want to solve. This is a problem that is no longer solvable by the decadent institutions which didn’t come through processes that are provided for within the Constitution because it provides for only one way of getting power, free and fair elections.

What exactly do you prescribe?
The starting point is to defy the cancerous illegal regime because authority arises out of obedience. If you are in power, you are only in power because we obey you. If we defy [the regime], you have nothing. So it is easy for the population to take back their power by simply defying what the regime says.

Do you see that happening in Uganda?
Oh yes! At least that is what we must work for. People must be clear what process will cause the change.

Well, you tried walk-to-work demonstrations and hardly got a third of Kampalans joining you…
It doesn’t matter.

Do you have a critical mass that can galvanise those efforts and cause the change you are talking about?
Of course! More than enough. You saw what happened here in the Mabira demonstrations. Why didn’t government give away Mabira as they had directed? Did Museveni take Mabira? He has the military, he has all these things but failed to take Mabira. That shows you the power and that people have the capacity. You saw what happened when he stopped the Kabaka from going to Kayunga? Didn’t the Kabaka go to Kayunga eventually? So the regime is empty; it is nothing without people’s will. The regime survives today because it has made people appear weak. Once people have not internalised how they get power and use it, they can appear as if they are powerless. That is what the regime has been working on over time and that is what we are working to change so that we have an empowered population, capable of acting together.
Is a boycott of the election a viable option?
No! Why boycott anything? All our struggles, including the bush, is fighting for the vote but the vote is not a piece of paper, that is not the vote we are fighting for. We are fighting for a vote that counts and is respected and that is the election we want to go to.

Elections are a few months away, civil society and Opposition gave government a working timeline within which the reforms must be in place but time is running out...
I am very conscious of the fact that as far as I am concerned and knowing the processes of government and what work remains ahead, it is no longer possible to have a free and fair election come February next year. It is no longer possible because of the time constraint. What this country should do is to let the term of Mr Museveni end, he gets out of office, we have a transitional administration that organises and manages the transition.

In other words Museveni should not contest in 2016 election?
If he wants to contest that is his business and the business of those who want him to do so. Museveni contesting is not the problem, the problem is Museveni contesting as the State. He contests as the State not as Museveni, the representative of NRM. As he has been saying, he controls all the money, he controls Bank of Uganda and can direct it to push out any money he wants. He contests as the owner of the military which he shouldn’t.

So how do we arrive at the transitional government in these circumstances? How, for instance, do you deal with its composition?
That is a matter for discussion which should start taking place because it is no longer possible to have a free and fair election.

Is that discussion shared among your peers and does it resonate with them?
Yes, I think among all…

I see UPC looking for money for their delegates’ conference, preparations for the same are in high gear in FDC and DP. What is happening in those parties is not in sync with what you are saying. It appears they are ready for the elections unlike Dr Besigye.
Delegates’ conferences and other political activities should go on, even people preparing for elections should go ahead on but it is the type of elections that we must have a full understanding of.

In the event that we don’t have the transition government in place to organise free and fair elections, and chances are high we won’t, what is the way forward?
Well, I think there will be a contestation. Contestation is not only through an election, we can contest what they are doing in many ways and I think Ugandans should contest anybody seeking to have another fraudulent election.

So if electoral reforms are achieved, will you offer yourself for the fourth time?
Let me say this. I have never had a personal ambition to be a president of Uganda. I have never set out actually on a mission to be president of Uganda. I set out to make sure that I live in a free and democratic society where I have equal opportunity with others. It is in the struggle for that that I have been drawn into struggles for elections. But it has never been my mission, and it isn’t even now.
Nonetheless, if in those struggles as we have done, I didn’t intend to be a candidate in 2001, circumstances demanded that I become. If in that kind of way it is still felt by others, really not so much by me, that I have a role to play, I will not run away until the work is done.

You cannot give Sunday Monitor a straight yes or no answer on this one?
I cannot rule myself out nor am I ruling myself in.

The party is struggling financially unlike during your time. What magic did you go away with?
I can’t competently answer you because I don’t know the financial position of the party as it is now. I am not aware they are constrained up to the extent of not being able to run basic party requirements.
What was organised at Serena [hotel] was very well organised and it required money which they must have had. There are programmes going on in the country, they are mobilising in the regions. I am not aware there is the kind of trouble that you are painting.
But I must point out that whether it was under my leadership or all other political parties, any party operating under the dictatorship can’t have the means to operate decently. It is simply not possible. Anybody who associates with the Opposition is treated as inimical to the State. If a businessman wrote a cheque and it was known, Uganda Revenue Authority will be at his door. So we have a regime that deliberately wants to strangle operation of political parties.
Museveni has been saying I am the money, you will get the money if you work with me. What message does that send? So it is understandable that not only FDC but all parties are in the stranglehold from the regime in terms of financing. You cannot organise. It is a challenge for the entire Opposition.

What do you make of the joint Opposition candidate idea?
I have already given you my opinion. I think it is diversionary to talk or focus on candidates before we focus on the type of election. When you start talking of candidates that itself causes competition and division and therefore detracts you from the primary struggle all of you are meant to engage in the first place.

You contacted Gen David Sejusa when he was in London and told Sunday Monitor in an interview then that you were working with him to cause regime change here. He has since returned. Have you met him since his return?
Well I haven’t met or talked to him since he came back but I have met and talked to some of his colleagues or associates. I have no problem dealing with him. There are a number of things that are still not clear to my mind regarding the way he returned which caused me not to engage with him directly but in principle I have nothing against working with anybody.

What is your comment about the return of Lt Col Kyakabale?
Very welcome back home, I pretty much welcome him. What advised his return and what his plans are, I am not aware but I think this is our home and we should fight from here.

Are you in touch with another exiled army officer, Samson Mande who once publically professed support for FDC and yourself?
Not lately, but I was in touch with him sometime back when I was in the party. I have not been in touch with him for some time but I guess he must be in touch with the leaders of the party.

And Amama Mbabazi? There was a story in one of the newspapers that claimed he had met you, Muntu and other Opposition leaders and you held intimate discussions about 2016 elections though you and him did not agree. Is that true?
Well what I know is that he has had a discussion with some of our MPs in Parliament who are his fellow MPs because he is now also a back bencher and I think they interact there in Parliament and I think it is a good thing.

Has he reached out to the officials in FDC?
I don’t know, I am not an official of FDC.

And yourself?
Not really. Not directly, but I have held discussions with some of the people he relates with.

What do you talk about?
Certainly those discussions are about the politics of this country, there is nothing else we would be discussing but as I have pointed out, my main thrust is not just elections but what type of elections we shall have.

Do you consider Mr Mbabazi an ally?
I would consider anybody an ally who seeks to do what we are doing, with the same objectives of making sure we get a transition from a dictatorship to a democratic Uganda. Anybody who wants to play a role in that is an ally. That doesn’t mean that whatever baggage they come with I advocate ignoring the baggage. No! If anybody has committed any offences at all, those offences shouldn’t be swept under the carpet. But you see we can never establish a just system and enforce justice without making the transition. Let’s do first things first, let us establish a just system and let the just system enforce justice.

What do you make of the recent Cabinet reshuffle?
I don’t even think it was any serious reshuffle. You know all the same dead wood, same corrupt people, same incompetent people.

Your region (Kigezi) took a big chunk of the cake this time round….
That simply goes to recognise that Kigezi is the most troublesome for Museveni now but also means that unless you really challenge the regime it won’t pay attention to you.

Your party envoy in the Diaspora Sam Akaki wrote that from his interactions with the international community, it appears the West is comfortable with the status quo in Uganda despite its host of weakness rather than plunge into an Opposition that is not clear and is chaotic.
I wouldn’t like to respond to something that is an opinion of someone, if that was his opinion and you are not misquoting him. What I can say for sure and a matter that is incontrovertible is that we have organic relations and interactions with all the Western countries, with parties in power and now out of power, we have continuous interaction.
I have never heard any misgiving presented to me or to anyone that I know regarding our policies as FDC.

We have seen photos of Raila Odinga and Uhuru Kenyatta talking freely despite their deep political differences. What is terribly unique about Uganda that Museveni cannot shake Besigye’s hands and dialogue?
Even Museveni shakes hands with Opposition leaders here, the only difference is that he wants to shake hands just for the cameras. That is not what you see in other countries, there is organic interaction. They have meetings.

Why can’t you meet Mr Museveni discuss a way forward for the country?
We have insisted that for any discussion to be meaningfully held with Mr Museveni, it must be a properly structured discussion in which parameters have been agreed upon. We have provided four parameters that need to be agreed upon in advance.
One is that there is a moderator for that discussion not just you and him because he has demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that he is unreliable.
Secondly, we need to agree on the agenda of the discussion, it must be very clear and how decisions will be taken.
Thirdly, you need to agree on who becomes part of the dialogue. They have said that we dialogue with the 40 registered parties when it is clear that there are no 40 political parties that are active in Uganda. Many of them are briefcase parties registered by the regime so they want to swamp you in the disguise of having talks.
Fourthly, there has to be an agreement on how to make sure that whatever is agreed upon is implemented, how to guarantee the implementation of the decisions because many agreements have been made with Mr Museveni and he has never implemented any so there need to be guarantors.

What is your last word to Ugandans?
Well, they will not have a better nation unless they work for it. It won’t come like rain from above, every Ugandan has a duty to work for a better Uganda. The starting point is to regain the power so that they can make the changes they deserve.