‘Germany will fund Uganda as long as it makes a difference’

The German Federal Minister for Economic Cooperation and Development, Dirk Niebel, is in Uganda for a working visit. The Sunday Monitor’s Nelson Wesonga spoke to him about some governance issues.

You are visiting Uganda at a time when the government has just reopened two radio stations and two newspaper publications that had carried a story it was uncomfortable with. What is your take on the 11-day closure of the two dailies and radio stations?

The issue of human rights and the freedom of the press was a standing point in all the political meetings we have had. Before I travelled to your country, our ambassador and the European Union ambassadors said it is unacceptable that the freedom of the press will be beaten.

Even in the political meeting I had, I pointed it out. I am very happy that during one meeting with your State Minister for Finance, information reached us that your newspaper has reopened.
We use dialogue with the government to make it very clear that freedom of the press is very important for our cooperation with your country.

Supposing the dialogue between Germany and Uganda is not really bearing fruit, how much further would Germany be willing to go to impress upon the government on principles of human rights?
It is not my position to threaten. But we are very sure that we will have consequences of the underlying principles of our cooperation have been threatened by the government.
If consequences will be necessary, sometimes the German government will make it.

For instance?
It is not time to talk about it now...We have had [consequences], when we stopped general budget support. We did it several times during the last two years because of human rights issues, especially but also because of the corruption case in the Office of the Prime Minister.
We have now agreed to shift from the general budget support to strengthening institutions to make sure this does not happen anymore.

Are you satisfied with the way the government is handling corruption?
Corruption is an issue we are very concerned about because every time we have to explain to our taxpayers why we spend money abroad. They – taxpayers – expect that the money is going to the projects they expect it to...

Because of this [Office of the Prime Minister] misappropriation case, we agreed two days ago that we shift from the general budget support and instead invest in strengthening institutions – the office of the Auditor General, the human rights court and the Ministry of Finance – in your country.
The corruption case in the Office of the Prime Minister (OPM) was discovered by your Auditor General. This is very good. In future, the Auditor General must be stronger and the Finance ministry must become stronger to act against corruption and be better in training civil servants to notice if corruption happens, know how to stop it.

We asked your government to fully implement the action plan against corruption as soon possible. If this happens, it would be a very good first step. But, we also think that the people who misappropriated money have to be punished.

During your trip outside of Kampala on Friday afternoon, when you compare it with the developments in Kampala and the amount of money that has been sunk into this country over the last two decades, do you get the sense that there is real value being added?

The development of your country is on a good track. But I am not an expert on Uganda to explain what will happen to your country. I have just been here for two days. I have to use the knowledge of our staff at the embassy in Kampala and my staff in development projects to know what is happening here. It is not quite a democracy like in Germany. It is different. But Africa is different from Europe. So may be it is a situation where you can work but not as free as it should be.

Is democracy understood in a universal sense?
Every human being has the same rights. The universal human rights also have to apply in Africa. Normal democratic rights also have to be respected in Africa. I know that in several regions in Africa there are processes [democratisation]. When I look at the region, you are much better than other countries. But when I look at the world, you have some challenges that have to be solved.

Is being better good enough?
Better is not good enough. But better is better than worse.
So it is the point we have to start working with. That is what we are doing. We are not colonialists. It is not our country. We only can give you and your people a hand to get the instruments to make it better. That is what we can do. You have to manage it yourself.

How do you explain to your taxpayer your continued spending money on a country like Uganda in the face of reported massive corruption, human rights abuses and failing democracratic practices?
First, the livelihood becomes better for the people when we cooperate with the country. Second, it is the way to open up for political dialogue and change things in the long term.

Are you sure that the money actually goes to bettering the livelihoods of the people?
In human rights issues in the world, we do not have white and black. You have a lot of grey. And you have to decide case by case if it is better for the people to shift out and leave a country or if it is better for the people to stay in, stay in dialogue and try to change things. And that is the reason we change the instruments: we don’t give taxpayers’ money anymore into the budget of a country to do whatever it wants to do with it. We give taxpayers’ money to finance projects where we can see the result. And this makes the difference for the people affected by the project.

How much longer will the German government be willing to tolerate a situation where it is cooperating for the benefit of the citizens of a country like Uganda and yet the government is failing on its commitments on human rights and democracy?
As long as we think that our cooperation will make a difference in a better way, we will cooperate. And the moment we notice that our cooperation does not change, anything we will stop it.

Thank you for your time.