Amongi interrogated over Asian property row

Ms Amongi walked into the Commission’s hearing hall at the National Records and Archives Centre in Wandegeya at 12.30pm. Justice Bamugemereire is assisted by six other members. Ephraim Kasozi and Jalira Namyalo covered the proceedings and captured the highlights.

Ebert Byenkya (Commission’s lead counsel):
My lord, I would like to know whether there is anything you want to say at the beginning of the day.
Justice Bamugemereire: Just for the record, we are starting late because the witness had to make a detailed statement.
I thought I would briefly say why we are here and how we got here. So, we are happy to have you Honourable Amongi. And how do we get here?
We are here because this Commission believes in the rule of law. In order for the rule of law to be respected, it is important that everybody plays their part.
As a Commission, we found it necessary that we should enforce the execution of the rule of law.
We believe in equality before the law. What underpins our ethics as a Commission is transparency. We try as much as humanly possible to have open and fair hearings.
The law that defines Commissions makes sure that hearings should be made public, it is only in rare circumstances that hearings are conducted in camera and there must be good reasons.
Everybody including ourselves ought to be accountable to the public, to the country for everything that we do in the public space.
Nobody is an exception to transparency and nobody is an exception to accountability. A person who is complained against has a right to defend their integrity and their person.
Byenkya: Honourable Minister, I believe you are accompanied by counsel.
Francis Nshekanabo (Amongi’s counsel): Thank you my lord. I work for Nshekanabo, Gadala and Company Advocates. I am appearing for both Amobet Investments Limited and Hon Betty Amongi.
Byenkya: I now invite the Hon Minister to stand up and take oath [Amongi takes oath and states she is MP for Oyam South and Minister of Lands, Housing and Urban Development]. Can you tell us your age and where you reside?
Amongi: 43 years. I reside in Kira Municipality.
Byenkya: How long have been a minister?
Amongi: One year and nine months.
Byenkya: Can you tell us a bit about your ministry? First of all, how many ministers are there?
Amongi: Before I can start to answer, I wanted to put some things on record if I can be allowed.
Bamugemereire You will come to that. This is background information that is important and I think you should accept to be led. Counsel make sure what is needed to be on record is on record.
Byenkya: Can you tell us about other ministers who are there
Amongi: I have three ministers of state; one in-charge of Land, one in-charge of Housing and another in-charge of Urban Development, who assist me in the administration of the ministry.
Byenkya: How do you distribute the roles?
Amongi: Sometimes a Minister of State for Lands can get direct petitions from the people but according to the structure, most communication comes through the senior minister and usually, I delegate those I feel are related to the one she handles because land matters are many. I delegate and others I handle.
Byenkya: Just for the record, who are ministers in your ministry?
Amongi: State Minister for Lands is Persis Namuganza, State for Housing is Chris Baryomunsi and Mr Isaac Musumba is for Urban Development.
Byenkya: Maybe explain to us. What is your role as senior minister?
Amongi: My role is stipulated under Article 117 of the Constitution. I will read it …. “Ministers shall individually be accountable to the President for the administration of the ministries and collectively responsible for the decisions made by Cabinet.” In this respect, if I have directives from the President, the Cabinet and general administration under this Article, I perform.
Of course other laws like the Land Act gives specific roles to the minister. I have the Physical Planning Act, the Architects Act, so all those Acts that are related also give specific roles to the minister.
But the general one is Article 117 as the anchor of the rest of the roles. But besides that, as a minister, I am in-charge of ensuring policy formulation, strategic policy implementation, ensuring that the budget of the ministry is developed through the different departments, it is harmonised by top management which includes all the ministers, permanent secretaries and other technical staff.
Byenkya: As the senior minister of Lands, do you have any role to do with the management of Departed Asians Custodian Board property?
Amongi: Not directly, but there is a board that sits for strategic policy and budget for the overall management of Departed Asians Custodian Board under the minister of Finance.
Byenkya: Are you a member of the Board?
Amongi: Yes.
Byenkya: For how long have you been a member of the board?
Amongi: I cannot remember when I started but when I became a minister, it took me sometime before I could attend the meeting to which I got an invitation.
Byenkya: Is membership automatic by virtue of being a substantive minister?
Amongi: If I want, I can delegate. It is not necessarily that a substantive minister is a member.
Byenkya: There has to be a representative of the minister?
Amongi: Yes
Byenkya: Is this a function you have carried out yourself or you have delegated because I would imagine there would be a formal delegation to appoint somebody to the board and you write a letter notifying the board.
Amongi: You mean somebody who attends on a regular basis or when I am not there?
Byenkya: Just to perform the role of membership and carries out the duty as a member of the Board on behalf of the minister of Lands
Amongi: Sometimes if I am going away on a duty, I can assign anyone to perform my function.
Byenkya: Have you attended meetings of the [Departed Asians] Custodian Board?
Amongi: Yes
Byenkya: We received a complaint that concerns a company called Amobet Investments Limited from a gentleman called Toshak (Manubhai Patel). Do you know that gentleman?
Amongi: I know him.
Byenkya: I want you to respond to that before we go to other matters. He complained against a company called Amobet Investments Limited. Do you know this Amobet Investments Limited?
Amongi: Yes, Amobet Investments Limited is company incorporated in 2008. I own a share of 60 per cent with another shareholder and since then, we have been engaged in various businesses.
Byenkya: The other shareholder is Ms Adong Cate. Is that right?
Amongi: Yes.
Byenkya: Who is Adong Cate?
Amongi: Adong Cate is a businesswoman based in Lira.
Byenkya: You are partners, are you related by blood or…?
Amongi: She is my sister.
Byenkya: So, we could call this a family enterprise?
Amongi: I do not know, we are all very enterprising women. So I don’t know whether to call it a family enterprise but it is an incorporated company.
Byenkya: Who are the directors of Amobet Investments Limited?
Amongi: Two of us are shareholders, we have a managing director who is the overall director of operations, Mr Henry Mubiru.
Byenkya: But I imagine you have a Board of Directors. Who are the other directors?
Amongi: I need to get details from the records.
Byenkya: You said you have been running the company for ten years and in business with it, I would imagine that you know them.
Amongi: I don’t want to make a mistake on record and put a name that is not there but if you want I will avail them to you.
Byenkya: Are there other directors apart from Mr Mubiru?
Amongi: Are you asking for directors in the context of administrators?
Byenkya: I was reading your Articles of Association that require your company to have at least two directors and not exceeding seven? If you complied, you would have a Board of Directors.
Amongi: That is why I said, I will avail them to you.
Byenkya: You don’t want to tell us?
Amongi: I will avail you the information later because here I had come to speak about the issues indicated in the summons but any other information about the company, we shall provide.
Byenkya: Are you a director?
Amongi: I am shareholder/director. I don’t know whether you can differentiate but in the form which is filled by the lawyers, it is me and Adong Cate as directors/shareholders.
Byenkya: I understand that there is membership and management and your Articles in particular require you to have directors
Amongi: For the directorship which is filed in the company registry is myself and Adong Cate who are shareholders/directors.
Byenkya: So Mubiru is not a registered director?
Amongi: Mr Mubiru’s title is in context of a Managing Director, the administrative arm.
Byenkya: At some point, Mr [George] Bizibu (Executive Secretary of Custodian Board) writes a letter accusing Mr Mubiru of fraudulently presenting himself as a director of Amobet. Are you aware of that letter?
Amongi: No. (Byenkya shows Ms Amongi the letter from Mr Bizibu). Possibly he could not have understood the context of directorship. For the context of Mr Mubiru, he is a managing director.
Byenkya: Maybe Hon Minister, at some point you might want to have a discussion with your lawyer to explain those concepts to you.
Bamugemereire: Why somebody is called a managing director is a legal statement, it is not just a name or a position given in a company. So, there are directors but there is a managing director.
Byenkya: If I was to take your answers, the way you have given them to us, I can only conclude that there are only two directors.
Amongi: Yes.
Byenkya: Those directors are also shareholders?
Amongi: Yes
Byenkya: Amobet is important because it is a company that was used as vehicle, according to the complainant, to acquire property that belong to them. Mr Toshak presented the evidence saying he is a registered owner of the property known as Plot 29 Acacia Avenue, Kololo Hill and he says his family owned this property for decades.
As Asians who were expelled from Uganda, they returned and repossessed this property. They have been occupying this property for many years and renting it out as a business to a company called Midcom.
Are you aware of those facts so far that a company is occupying it?
Amongi; I am aware of Mr Toshak as one of the registered proprietors.
Byenkya: You are also aware of the existence of a company called Midcom occupying that particular property.
Amongi: I was notified when our MD was allocated it and he got challenges and reported to us shareholders.
Byenkya: Do you have a copy of allocation?
Amongi: Not here.
Byenkya: Before the allocation, there was a letter of application, I don’t know if you have seen that letter from Amobet Investments Limited signed by Mubiru as director?
Amongi: Yes, I was shown the application dated December 20, 2017.
Byenkya: In that letter, Mr Mubiru signed as director of Amobet Investment Limited. Mr Mubiru writes to the executive secretary of Custodian Board and applied for the following properties; Plot 29 on Acacia Avenue Kololo Hill, Plot 15/17 First Street Industrial Area, Plot 12 Prince Charles Drive in Kampala and Plot 21 Kyaddondo, Kibuga Mengo using the letterhead of Amobet Investments Limited and described himself as director. Did you know about these applications?
Amongi: Mr Mubiru, our Managing Director, after he got challenges…
Byenkya: My question Hon Minister is before the application was made. We are talking about the application of December 12, 2017.
I am looking at a scenario where you have an employee applying for all these prime properties in Kololo, Industrial Area and Mengo.
My question is, can an employee go and apply without your knowledge?
Amongi: Mr Mubiru, our managing director has been given power to run the company. The first attempt to make application to the Custodian Board was in 2010.
However in 2010, we got opportunity through him to get a partnership in South Sudan. Then he abandoned the application. He had knowledge of the opportunities and for us as directors gave him a leeway that he can always transact business and make sure he always inform us about the challenges. But if things are running well, he waits until we have a meeting to report to us.