Nyanzi is trying to incite the public against me – Mamdani

Prof Mahmood Mamdani during the interview at his office in Makerere University, Kampala recently. Photo by Abubaker Lubowa.

What you need to know:

Not yet over. The row between renowned global scholar Prof Mahmood Mamdani and researcher Dr Stella Nyanzi continues to rage on. On Monday, Dr Nyanzi stripped protesting the closure of her office; bringing work at the research institute to a near standstill. What are the underlying issues? Who is telling the truth? Where does this leave Makerere University? Ivan Okuda on Tuesday interviewed Prof Mamdani. Excerpts:-

Are you embarrassed that you stretched a single mother of three and scholar with a doctorate to the point of expressing herself by going nude? Did it have to come to this? What exactly is going on here?
Let’s give context as you said. Dr Stella Nyanzi came to MISR [Makerere Institute of Social Research] in 2011. I hired her. In 2012, we introduced the PhD programme. This programme was passed by the Senate, Council and the National Council for Higher Education. In other words, it was passed by both university and government authorities.
When I introduced the programme, I informed all the academic staff here that they would teach 50 percent of the time and do research 50 per cent. Stella Nyanzi refused. Then it came to time for Nyanzi to apply for confirmation of her position and the appointments board asked for my view. I said to Nyanzi, will you teach in the programme? She said ‘yes’. I said to the board, ‘Nyanzi is willing to teach and on that basis, I support her confirmation.’ She was confirmed into university service.

The following year, she applied for a fellowship at the University of Cape Town (UCT) [in South Africa]. UCT demanded support of the director and Vice Chancellor. Again, support was given for the same reason. She said she would go there, prepare a course she would teach when she comes back here. She came back and refused to teach. Now the question was what to do. I wrote a letter to the director human resource, copied to the VC. I put the whole context, I included the whole documentation. I concluded the letter by saying I need guidance. What should I do? That is 2014. I haven’t had a response until now.
What reason did she advance for refusing to teach?
She said she didn’t apply to teach, she applied to be a researcher.

What does her contract stipulate?
The contract says what she will do at MISR, at the time given what MISR was and it says she must take responsibilities from the director. Policies change. MISR was a consultancy unit when she came in, we turned it into a research unit and that meant her responsibilities changed but the thing is she doesn’t even do research at MISR.
What does she do?
She doesn’t do any institutional research at MISR, she does private research. Every researcher at MISR is required, when they write a research proposal, to present it at the Wednesday seminar at MISR, the proposal is read, discussed, critiqued and revised based on that session. Stella Nyanzi has never presented a research proposal in her five-year stay here. She is doing her own research.

Wait, this is a public servant, paid by the Ugandan taxpayer for five years for no official work done. Are you not liable for condoning, abetting and possibly aiding this abuse of office?
Now Stella Nyanzi works on homosexuality. This was a very delicate period in which the Ugandan Parliament was passing a law criminalising not only same sex practice but also any advocacy. It was my judgment that I should not pursue this matter any further. I explained to my colleagues that a higher objective was at stake - academic freedom. Matters changed. A few months ago, one of my staff said to me, ‘If Dr Nyanzi can be here and not teach, why do I have to teach?’ I realised this risked becoming a precedent and the programme could fold. There are only five research fellows here, one was not teaching. That left four of us. If another refused to teach, it would leave three of us.
There appears to be a discrepancy over contractual interpretation and the extent to which you could stretch your discretionary powers to allocate new roles even as the institute mutated.

The contract is not a consultancy contract, it is a research contract. I have just told you she didn’t do any institutional research. She wasn’t even following the old contract. Two, the contract has a provision in it that takes into account change in conditions and policies, which is that the director has a right to tell you within reasonable terms. The training of researchers is within the scope of a research institution.
When you brought this to her attention, what else did you do?
I took it to the appointments board. The chair of the board told me, ‘but you had every right to tell her what to do.’ I said no, it is not working. What should I do? He said wait. I am waiting. I wrote to the deputy VC, academic affairs, copied to the chair appointments board. Everybody is scared to touch her because she is the VC’s niece. That is the source of her impunity, the confidence that nothing can be done to her. Did I drive her into this or did she stage it? [Daily] Monitor said she announced on her Facebook page she was going to do this.

This was organised. Two students came with her with placards. A TV station was brought here at the same time. This was a theatre performance. The VC was here almost immediately. The VC said it is deplorable someone would do this but we must understand. You can say that about anything.
Do you get the sense that she is a ruse used in a complex war to fight you and possibly she doesn’t notice she is being used, innocently so?
I am sure she didn’t do this alone. She couldn’t have done this alone and I am sure this is part of a larger thing.
What is that larger thing?
It is about this PhD programme. There are those who would want to dismantle the programme and see me out of here. I have no doubt about that. My contract at Makerere expired in March 2015. Since March 2015, Makerere has been extending it piecemeal, by three months, turning me into a caretaker without any powers to negotiate with donors. Someone with a three-month contract cannot negotiate with a donor.

Who is in this group and what is their mission?
You are the investigative reporter but that group includes the VC. I have no doubt about that. The VC has never given support to this programme. The VC advertised the job of director MISR in the press and that advert is not about this job. It is not about MISR. It is about somebody who will return it to what it was - a consultancy unit. The chair of the appointments board came here and asked me to apply. I said no, I will not because this is not what I do and this is not what I came to do. I didn’t come here for a job, I came here to build a programme and there is nothing in that advert about the programme.
Has there been any incident between you and the VC that feeds your suspicion?
I told you one thing; he was the source of the advert. The chair of the appointments board came here and I told him I was not going to apply. He said what do you want me to do? I said put an advert which mandates the director to support this programme and they put in a new advert and removed the age limit of 55.

How old are you now?
I am going to be 70 this month. Then you put 55? You know scholars are not athletes. People become scholars with time. I have a tenure chair at Columbia University. They can’t kick me out no matter how old I am. They can kick me out if I become senile.
The last time I saw the VC was at the Okot p’Bitek symposium. I said bwana VC, this is March 2016, the last extension you gave me expired in December 2015. I am now director of MISR illegally. Anybody can take me to court to challenge any decision I make. I have no powers to make any decision. I said ‘why don’t you make sure you legalise my directorship from January until whenever?’ The VC said to me, ‘what are your plans?’ I said: ‘It depends on your plans.’ He said: ‘Why don’t you stay on, we have decided that your contract will end in June 2016. Why don’t you stay on after that and raise funds and you can give us some of the funds and keep the rest?’ I said nothing.

‘Stay here, raise funds, give us some and keep the rest.’ That is a blockbuster. How did you interpret it?
Ask him. I am not a fundraiser, I am good at raising funds but I am not a fundraiser. I am a scholar. Nobody has insulted me by suggesting that I do the work of a fundraiser.
Let’s talk money. You have attracted funding to the institute to the tune of Shs23b from Shs5.5b your predecessor harvested in donor support. Where does this money go and who controls it?
That money goes to first, student scholarships. We pay fees to the university, we give students their research allowances and cover day-to-day needs and their monthly maintenance. That money goes to the library, that money is under us but we can’t spend anything without the University Secretary signing because anything above Shs2m, he has to counter sign. If there is procurement, we have to go through him.

When you left the University of Columbia to return here, what informed your decision and what was your vision?
I am still tenured at the University of Columbia. What I said to Columbia in 2010 was that I want to be on part-time. I want leave of absence for five years. I want to go to Makerere and build this programme. They said ok. In 2015, I said to them I want another five years because I expected my contract to be renewed. I didn’t expect that we would have these temporary extensions and Columbia agreed because Columbia is a global university. It wants to have a global presence, it wants to have a Columbia faculty building a programme here or somewhere else outside America. It is not a shopkeeper’s mentality.
What is the fate of that programme now?
Grim. It is grim.

Is throwing in the towel one of your options?
I rule out no option if the university will not give support to the programme. I told them I am not re-applying unless I have concrete indications of support, not promises. I have told them you even extended my contract up to end of June, which means you don’t even know when the semester ends at MISR. The semester begins mid-May and ends in August. So am I supposed to start teaching in mid-May because it ends in August and leave end of June?
There are questions this scandal has raised around the high staff turnover at MISR allegedly thanks to your management style. Some fine brains have had to jump ship and let you be here.
Look here. All these were not researchers. These were all consultants. When I came here, I told the appointments board that my agenda would be to end consultancy. I was very happy. Stella Neema is in the sociology department. Ziwa Sebina retired, Goloba Mutebi moved to Rwanda, his family was there. Kiseka Ntale and others set up consultancies in town.
Why don’t you want consultancy at MISR?

In a consultancy, the client designs the questions. In research, you design the questions. It is that simple difference. Consultants have no expertise. You can be doing consultancy in primary education one day, primary healthcare the next day and infrastructure the third day. Anything! You just gather data. Consultants are not needed because of their expertise. I have seen through this. They come here because consultancies usually come from World Bank, embassies. All they want is a stamp of a national research institute.
With the benefit of hindsight, do you honestly think you made a managerial mistake here?

Oh! It is impossible that I didn’t. Are you asking me if I haven’t made mistakes in my life?
No. I am referring to the instant case at hand.
Yeah, but tell me which one, ask me specific things, you cannot ask me a general question.
That possibly locking Dr Nyanzi out of office was high-handed and this should have been handled better.
May be it could have been if I had support from the university.
You defied instructions from the deputy VC to stay the eviction of Dr Nyanzi untill the matter was sorted out.

No. the DVC said ‘I request you.’ It was not an instruction and he made it clear the next day to the press because when he found out the full story, he backtracked. I told the DVC, I wrote my letter today (Tuesday), she is not doing any official duty here, she is not meeting students, she doesn’t need an office because she is not teaching. She is welcome to sit in the library while we resolve this matter. I am actually glad that this issue has come to the fore front. The university no longer has the luxury of just diverting attention. The VC has tried to divert attention again by appointing this investigation committee whose terms of reference say nothing about what happened yesterday (Monday).
You have been accused of being a bully. That because you have a high-flying CV and are ranked among the world’s finest thinkers, you can flout procedure and always have your way because you are Mamdani.

I am the director of the institute. I follow procedure. She has said that she had agreed to teach under duress. I think she may be right in the sense that she knew if she didn’t teach, she would be out of here. So she lied! She lied! The institute had changed through decisions of the highest organs of the university and government into a research and teaching institute. I don’t know a great research institute globally which doesn’t train PhD because most good research comes out of PhD. Most researchers don’t do anything new after their PhD, that is what they keep rewriting and developing thought.
And the disturbing allegation that you got your wife office space at the institute?
My wife has an organisation called Maisha Arts and Cultural Centre. This is a non-profit organisation. That space, when I came here in 2010, was rented to a Kenyan firm, which used it for storage. It was never opened. I said to my staff, this place is never opened and cleaned, it is going to deteriorate. Two, we seem to have nothing in common with this organisation. This space should be rented to an organisation whose objectives are in harmony with our own objectives. When Maisha Arts and Culture Centre came, I put several conditions to them. One, you will pay exactly the same rent the Kenyan firm was paying, which was $900 (about Shs3m) a month so they paid exactly the same rent.

When did she cease to be a tenant of the institute?
Can you wait? I am telling you. I said number two, you will renovate that space, paint it and clean it. They agreed and I said three, our students will have access to your library. They agreed to all conditions and were here for one year because after one year, we brought in more staff and I said to them we are sorry, you have to leave. This is office for staff and the other half is for publication and communication unit.
Stella Nyanzi is trying to paint a picture as if I am the Indian shopkeeper, which large sections of the Ugandan public have anxieties about and worry about. She is also trying to paint the picture that I am an old man, power-hungry old man who is refusing to leave office, appealing to supporters of the Opposition that if you didn’t get justice in the last election, this is a consolation prize, you can get a modicum of justice here. But that is not what Stella Nyanzi is and that is not what I am.

Who is she?
Stella Nyanzi is a walking, talking, performing version of Red Pepper. She combines commercialism, sensationalism, character assassination, sexuality, all mixed in a brew designed to have the widest audience.
At this rate, how and where will this impasse end? Are you ready to work with her?
No. Of course not! I have said to the appointments board, until yesterday (Monday), we were saying Nyanzi must teach but now she must not teach because it will be a kiss of death to this programme after what happened on Monday morning. She has to be removed from this office.
During the presidential election campaign, Dr Nyanzi took to her social media pages and campaigned for Dr Kizza Besigye while denigrating Mr Museveni with all tribes of profanities. First as a public servant, the Political Parties and Organisations Act limits how far she can go with canvassing support for a candidate but secondly, some people take issue with her vulgarity. Did these issues concern you as her boss?
I don’t read Facebook. I am an academic. I have broad levels of tolerance. I don’t care what Nyanzi writes, what I care about is what she uses this office for. I don’t even care if she writes her own stuff from here provided she does what she is supposed to do. I don’t know any public servant who can be paid not to do any official duty. Ask her if she has done anything official here in the last five years.
Would I be right to conclude that this scandal is hinged on a triangle involving you, Nyanzi and the VC?
No. At the heart of this is the PhD programme. Don’t get taken by just individual characters. If I was not director of MISR, and in charge of this specific programme, they would have no interest in me.

So the interest is in Mamdani?
No, the interest is the PhD programme. They want to dismantle the programme and they want the directorship transferred to someone else. The interest is that; it is not me.
Will you seek intervention from the University Council chairman or even minister of Education?
I am not going to any of them. I have taken it up with the chairman of the Appointments Board. It is the highest appointing and disciplinary authority in this university.