Museveni is hostage of his actions and people around him

Does the Church have a role to play in the political governance of a country? If yes, what role should it play?
When you talk of Church, we don’t mean religious leaders because a Church is made up of religious leaders and the laity. The Church has a role and any sensible person shouldn’t be asking that question because even you or President Museveni is a Church member, all ministers are Church members and therefore, every person who believes in God or goes to Church or Mosque is free to talk about politics.
The Church has got a paramount role to play in politics. The people who make politics are the people who make the Church and so you can’t separate the two.

So is President Museveni right to say ordained Church leaders shouldn’t indulge in politics?
You know I was a member of the Constituent Assembly, but how did I get there? I didn’t contest for elections but I was nominated by the President and I am sure by the time he nominated me, he knew that I was a religious leader. In his Cabinet, there is Fr. Simon Lokodo.
When he was in the bush, how many bishops and religious leaders assisted him and he never complained? But I think the complaint now is out of selfishness and it is not only Museveni, but also those in government.
Once you take God out of politics, then somebody else comes in and who is this somebody else? It is the devil and where the devil is, that is where our calling as religious leaders is most wanted to fight the devil.
However, when politics is good as we say in Roman:13 (All authority comes from God) and if the authority does its work according to God’s commandments, then the religious leaders come in to praise them.
Secondly, religious leaders are Ugandans. I vote and so that vote which I give to whoever I give, I need that person to account for it.

But President Museveni says as religious leaders, you must stay in religion as he does in politics. Don’t you think you are overstepping your boundary?
People who make politics are God’s people and people who make the Church are also God’s people. Therefore, where do you draw the line? I think President Museveni knows very well that he is not being sincere.
First of all, we as religious persons, especially the ordained, and I am sorry for my brothers the Muslims, I don’t know much about the Quran but I know much about the Bible. If you read Luke 4:18-19, (The spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has chosen me to bring good news to the poor.
His role and our role is to proclaim liberty that one day you will be free and recover your sight. How many people are blind or act blindly without knowing? And this role is intentional by the leaders. (To set free the oppressed and announce that time has come when the Lord will save his people). This is our manifesto as religious leaders and even you as a Christian. Before Jesus started his work, he had to declare why he had come. And nobody should take it away from us and any religious person, who doesn’t follow this, is good for nothing.
According to the 1995 Constitution Article 4: “The State shall promote the awareness of this Constitution by translating it into Ugandan languages and disseminating as wide as possible and providing for the teaching of the Constitution in all the educational institutions, armed forces, training and regularly transmitting and publishing programmes through media generally”.
One time I met President Museveni at State House Nakasero and I said this to him immediately after 2006 elections. “For the dictators of Africa, their survival mainly is the illiteracy and poverty of the people they lead and this was face to face.”
Imagine being illiterate and poor, what can you do? I asked him why he failed to operationalise this Article and this is because the government doesn’t want Uganda to understand their rights. Government can’t tell us that they don’t have money when there is all this money being stolen and embezzled, it is intentional.

But many Ugandans feel let down by the Church especially when it comes to monitoring the politicians and other leaders when they go wrong like on abuse of human rights, corruption, and bad governance. What do you have to say about this?
I feel ashamed when I see how some religious leaders behave. It is unfortunate that some of us and I should say even the majority of us have joined the oppressors to oppress the oppressed.
The leaders through their evil ways like corruption, lies and intimidation are being oppressed by the devil. And our failure to guide them means that we connive with the oppressors.
They are joining the devil and once the devil oppresses these leaders, then the leaders because of selfishness, don’t give the services that people deserve.
Recently we had a meeting of the NGO forum and I challenged the laity who were in that forum why they only target President Museveni and leave religious leaders.
If you read Revelation 3:15, we are not with government and we are not with the people now where are we? So I think the people are right if they say and claim that religious leaders have joined the oppressor.
And there is nothing worse than a religious leader who becomes indifferent to the sufferings of the people.
But some of us have been compromised. A bishop is ordained and is given a Land Crusier and you think that they will talk?
Ugandans have become beggars including religious leaders. We see Museveni as the provider of everything and even we are about to say that Museveni and his government are the ones who provide our lives.
Last month, I met a bishop coming from one of the European countries for a medical check-up. But how many of your people can afford to go abroad for just a check-up?
I think we have lost direction and we have kissed Jesus on the other chic and we have betrayed him and by betraying Jesus you are not fighting for his people. We are supposed to be the voice of the voiceless.
Let us talk about your role in politics in Kigezi region. It is alleged that you influenced voters to throw out former Agriculture Minister and Woman MP for Kabale District Hope Mwesigye because you and her had differences. How true is this?
During last elections, I cast only one vote and not for her.
There was a document given to us by outgoing Anglican Archbishop Henry Luke Orombi and even leaders of Uganda Joint Christian Council pleaded with us not to vote any person that has been named in corruption scandals.
As a religious person and as a Ugandan I just educated people but did not campaign against Ms Mwesigye.
I had a copy of Daily Monitor with photos of those who were implicated in the Chogm scandal and I showed the photos to the masses. It was up to the people to vote for her or not.
Besides, because of her arrogance and doing things with impunity, she did not deserve the job. So it was her character that made her lose the election and not necessarily me.

But did she insult you?
Yes she did. On several occasions whenever she would be addressing people and I think to cleanse herself, she insinuated that I wanted to be close to her and if you remember, President Museveni said it in Kyankwanzi and I answered him in the Observer newspaper. This was an abuse to me as a Priest. It is a sacrament of ordination and even the priests in Kabale wrote a letter to the President asking him to refrain his minister from uttering such nonsense.
She even dragged me to State House Entebbe to meet Museveni over the same issues but I don’t want to reveal what I told the President. But I think she got what she wanted.

What political party do you belong to or sympathise with?
I was in the Movement and everybody knows it even Mr. Museveni, his ministers like Rukhana Rugunda, Amama Mbabazi know and there is no question about it. But they have been trying to allege that I belong to FDC. However, I said the day Mwesigye changes from a woman into a man, then I will leave NRM and be FDC which is impossible and so, I am an NRM sympathiser. But of course as a religious leader, we try to avoid partisan politics.

Who would you like to become the next president of FDC party?
I salute the FDC party, I salute the leadership, they have set an example, I salute Kizza Besigye for realising that he can retire and FDC will stay. And I salute him for having thought that I have done my part, let others continue, where I have failed. My only prayer is that they should play clean politics.
I have told you I sympathize with NRM but if the politics in FDC is bad, it affects all Ugandans and not only FDC and now whom do I support? I support any of them who is a pro-Ugandan people. I have met Mafabi on several occasions, I was with Mugisha Muntu in the Constituent Assembly and I know them and for Ekanya, I don’t know him very well but if the campaigns are clean and genuine and at the end of the day they elect any of them, we shall work with that person.

Do you think there is a lesson to learn from FDC by NRM on the transition of power?
I have talked to His Excellency many times about these things and in fact if there could be another chance of meeting him, I would kneel before him, hold his hands and say: Your Excellency, I thank God and I don’t thank God for what is happening in the country but I thank God that for whatever I have told you, it is happening when you are still alive and I am still alive; Definitely, NRM as a party has got a very big lesson to learn, especially the chairman of NRM who should come to know that he is not NRM and NRM is not him.
You see the definition of success, is to have and live a successor and if you can’t have a successor, then you are not successful. But our leaders are drunk with power.

If NRM is to transit, whom do you think is suitable to replace Mr Museveni and why?
I am on record for having said Uganda belongs to all of us men and women, young and old and it is my firm conviction that at 50 years of independence, when we start another jubilee, why can’t we try a lady to be President of Uganda.
We have had many female presidents in Africa and in the world and that is my prayer whether FDC, NRM or DP, let us try and have a lady. Maybe with their motherly spirit, they can try and be sympathetic to Ugandans.
And so you may ask me now among the ladies who do you have in mind? And when Kadaga was in Kabale on Women’s Day celebrations, I was quoted that I had endorsed Kadaga but the issue came up because I was asked and definitely she has done wanders in Parliament. So whether Kadaga, Ssebutinde or Janet Museveni Ugandans will decide.

The recent promotion of Col. Muhoozi Keinerugaba to the rank of Brigadier has raised rumour that he is likely to replace Mr Museveni. What are your thoughts about this promotion?
I have not met Muhoozi apart from the pictures I see in papers; first of all, Muhoozi is a Ugandan and he qualifies for anything. But sometimes prudence calls for caution. I am the parish priest of Kitanga; supposing the head catechist is my brother, the chief cook is my niece, etc. People will ask why?
So I think Muhoozi is a victim of circumstances and his hurried promotion draws more questions.
Keinerugaba is a good man but this is the environment which we live in.

There is a strong belief by the public based on the actions of President Museveni that him and Amama Mbabazi have fallen out. How true is that since you know Mr Museveni very well?
What I have heard about the relationship between Mbabazi and Museveni is in papers. I have not talked with Museveni and I have not talked with Mbabazi. So I don’t know whether what is being written is true or not.
However, there is a saying that there is no smoke without fire and these things have been said. But also remember a saying that in politics, there is no permanent friend or permanent enemy.
I told President Museveni that one time the people who surround you might ditch you one time. This was in two separate meetings; in Nakasero and another one in Arua. Moses Kigongo and Amelia Kyambadde were present in Arua. I told him that the people around him are using him as a ladder to catch what to eat. So if this is true, then what I predicted might be coming to pass.

What role do you think Museveni can play after relinquishing State power?
There is a lot but if he had given up power after 2001 elections, he would be a hero, a Statesman; he would be a point of reference and an icon. And even after elections of 2006 if he had said no, we would still politically adore him.
But if in 2016 he decides to step down, we shall say yes, he made mistakes but he has realised his mistakes and we thank him for that. If Museveni steps down in 2016, I will not support people who might want to hold him accountable for mistakes he made while in power.
To me, peace is more important for Uganda than trying to investigate Museveni and so Museveni would be given his gratuity to go to Rwakitura or Kisozi.

Do you think he fears relinquishing power because he could easily be investigated?
Of course there are many things that have happened during his reign. Some done by him in person or by his people so he can be afraid. As a person I don’t recall any atrocity that he has committed but we have got a proverb in Ruyankore-Rukiga which says when a girl becomes pregnant, then she makes others to be suspected. And as a person he hasn’t but he is a head of government/State and if you have got children, and they continue stealing my things and you don’t warn them, I will think that they steal for you.

Where did President Museveni go wrong in his leadership?
I think, there are many points where I can state that President Museveni went wrong or his government went wrong.
You remember the 10-point programme, they were really biblical for Uganda and they were almost God written, God inspired but along the way, they discarded them.
Can you quote any point among the 10 points that is operational now? For me I don’t see it and that is the first mistake they made to put aside the ten point programme.
Then after making the Constitution, President Museveni with his government made a covenant with the people of Uganda through the delegates and if you see Chapter one of the Constitution clauses 1,2,3, they have not honored it at all. Power belongs to the people but instead they have taken power away from the people to themselves.
But I think you are mature enough and elections in Uganda are not elections. It is the money; it is intimidation, the lies and false promises. During the last elections in Kasese, President Museveni feared to talk about the railway line because he has been talking about it in every election. He feared to talk about Kilembe Mines, he feared to talk about Nyakatonsi Cooperative Union.
Secondly, his government failed to educate the masses about the Constitution as stated in that Article and by translating it in different languages to enable all citizens to digest it.
In 2005, out of selfish motives and wanting to perpetuate themselves with power and without consultation and ignoring the will of the people, government amended the Constitution to scrap the presidential term limits by bribing MPs. That was the darkest day in the Museveni era. It was the beginning of problems because if he hadn’t changed Article 105, most of these leaders wouldn’t be there and that is why they are doing everything to perpetuate themselves in power.

How do you rate the current Parliament?
Definitely credit must go where it is due, the 9th Parliament has done its best in the current environment characterised by intimidation, bribery name it.
The 9th Parliament has done its work; however, we don’t know if it will withstand the test of time because you see what has happened to Muhammad Nsereko? Because he is independent-minded, he is facing intimidation and you know what is happening to MP Wilfred Niwagaba and many others.
So this Parliament has done its work but my Question is, will they sustain this?