We went to hunt and after getting our loot, I was served unfairly – Kyaligonza

Interview. Uganda’s ambassador to Burundi, Maj Gen Matayo Kyaligonza during the interview at his home in Kampala in April. PHOTO BY ALEX ESAGALA

What you need to know:

Interview. Rtd Maj Gen Matayo Kyaligonza recently made headlines for the wrong reasons. He was caught on camera, together with his guards, allegedly assaulting a police officer on duty. Derrick Wandera in this wide ranging interview asks him about the accusations against him, sense of entitlement among army generals, promotions in the army and politics surrounding succession.

You recently made news when a video emerged of you and your bodyguards assaulting a traffic officer in Seeta. You have since refuted the claims by Sgt Esther Namaganda that you assaulted her, despite what we see in the video. What are we missing?
There might have been an issue. It should have been pre-planned or sort of a coincidence. They had prearranged for someone else, but I was the one who fell into the trap. I think there are also some people pushing it from behind because after the taxi knocked us from behind, they drove off. The bodyguards jumped out and rushed to the traffic officer who could have been irritated already.
However, I will not repeat what has been talked about. If I had slapped this woman, she would not have remained standing and fighting, or [she] should have never failed to sustain an injury at least. A general slaps you and you remain standing? I hear she has a medical form but you all know that doctors of these days are not real. They are always bribed to produce those medical reports.

After this incident, there has been talk of some generals, including yourself, acting with impunity. Is this the picture you generals ought to portraying to the public?
I cannot talk on behalf of the minds of the people, and I cannot say this is what generals are supposed to be. This is an individual thing and it should not be generalised.

You addressed the media this week and said Sgt Namaganda could have been assaulted because she asked your bodyguards general ninani (who is a general)? Sounds like a similar incident at the Jinja Road Police Station soon after NRA took power, where you are said to have slapped a police officer for asking a similar question
The young men who are coming up right now have no residual respect for leaders, including elders. For them they think everything is as it were. Remember the other day, a whole judge called a senior minister who happens to be her boss to ask about something she is researching on.
It should have ended well if you do not misbehave and shout at a whole Attorney General. Was she supposed to ask rudely? The Deputy Attorney General (Mwesigwa Rukutana) had to answer rudely also. Another time you will find someone in the names of Maj Gen Kyaligonza, another time it will be (Lt Gen Charles) Angina or Maj Gen Wasswa Kasirye Gwanga or Gen Kahinda Otafiire. We are many and now you are right to say that all NRA people are behaving with impunity.
However, are these people not human beings, but doing things in the individual way? You should have the capacity to find out what brought the scuffle.

Sometimes when generals are caught in the wrong, they say twalwana (we fought). Some Ugandans are wondering how much the country owes the Bush War fighters
Now you young man, that is your question. Answer it yourself. Are there people who fought? Do you believe that there are some people who liberated this country and are you the one who sent them?
Now that you know you did not send them, they certainly did voluntary work. If people are supposed to thank us, they should [do it] willingly, but those who say twalwana are others. But have you ever heard me saying that?

But general, at the press conference yesterday (Monday) you said people should respect you because you fought
I was implying that we fought the war because we wanted to bring peace, which is not there. I need peace just as you do, or any other Ugandan. You have labelled me a slapping machine. That is not right. It should be a two-way traffic! For example, are you a general? You are not. I was made one because of a reason; because we fought, and someone should know that.

President Museveni decorates Maj Gen Kyaligonza at a past function. FILE PHOTO

It took President Museveni 26 years to elevate you from the rank of brigadier. You are now a major general and most of the Bush War commanders are full generals. Does that ever bother you?
We have different luck. If God purposed that I would be what I am today, I cannot refuse that just because my colleagues have surpassed me. That is what God planned for them. It is just natural that I have always cried for some more, even when I know that I highly deserve it.
Am I not entitled to it? So what merit do they use to make others climb ladders while some of us, who did the dirty job in the bush, are left down here for all that long? I keep asking myself whether it is because of indiscipline.

What do you think?
I have left that for you to help me answer. If you know that I participated in the war, I have scars of bullets on my body, did the unthinkable. Then someone does not have any record of what they did in the bush, save for education, but they are generals.
In any case, people are in the army and are philosophers, have all the education but are not generals. This means it is not about education. If it were about knowing how to command an army, then I would allow. Give Kyaligonza, a major general, an army and give another to any random full general. Let us face each other in a war and see whether he will escape my tactics. I will beat all of you. They also know.

In your book, The Agony of Power, you say there were many disagreements, some which people say, were tribal. Do you think these could be the ones resurfacing in the appointments?
No, the Bush War ended. But among us are some of the Bush War veterans. Maybe some of them are still holding onto the Bush War fights. I do not know, as far as I’m concerned those fights ended there. Some people could hate you and they do not reveal it to you.
I keep wondering why I am still what I am because 26 years is a very long time. There is nothing that I did not do in the war. Some of them were in the bush; I was in Kampala, in the middle of terror. I lived every minute of my life as the last moment. I was arrested, shot at, escaped from Nile Mansion, a three-storey building, and broke my back. Now, I have metals and screws in my body because of the war. But why, why would I be treated like this? Anyway, that is life my son.

You served in Idi Amin’s army as one of the officers in the State Research Bureau. We all know the atrocities that they committed. How did you later integrate into NRA?
I want to correct your impression. You know many Ugandans think that serving in Amin’s army, [Milton] Obote’s army and Museveni’s are different things. These armies do not belong to individuals, they are State armies but with different leaders.
As for me, I didn’t serve there for long. I was there for only six months and went for a course in Iraq for two years and by the time I came back, the changes (in leadership) had started. All the same, when these changes came, I was part of the changes, and that means I participated in the disruption of the other man’s (Amin) leadership.
In addition, I knew we were bringing in serenity, which has happened and today, here we are. Nobody will be proud to speak about the negative, but if it is a positive, why don’t I feel proud to speak about what I participated in.

Right now, the talk has changed to [President] Museveni’s war, but we are the people who fought the war. Museveni was just the initiator and now when things go bad, he is the one labelled. We the subjects are the ones spoiling his image; he is a calm man if you did not know.
You might ask me, why you? But how many generals do you have like myself? If you matter you are talked about, and if you don’t then no one will want to associate with you.

You commanded the Black Bombas unit that was based in Kampala during the Bush War. What did it feel like commanding the war in an urban setting; having to beat roadblocks, attacking army detaches and police stations to get guns, etc?
The Black Bomba! [Laughs] You seem to know a lot about me. You must have read a lot about Kyaligonza. Black Bomba was an antonym, which we created out of the Mwanga Unit. When we came into the war, we started naming units after our heroes, chiefs and kings, for instance, King Kabalega, Lutamaguzi (because when he concealed President Museveni’s hideout, he was killed) and others.

When President Museveni came from Libya where he had gone to get guns from [former Libyan president Muammar] Gaddafi, he found many internal squabbles, which were within us.
Out of youth excitement, because of the movies I used to watch, I renamed my unit African Black Bombas from Mwanga. So when he came back he confirmed and started addressing it as that before it was changed to 7th Battalion. This became the core unit that captured power. It operated in central, east and part of north. I was the commander. That is why I also always called myself a legend.

Gen Kyaligonza, you seemed to be an aggressive man during the war. Do you still carry that trait, given what we have heard of you of late?
No. I do not think so. During that time, we had a cause, if you relaxed around you could die. If you have soldiers you are commanding and leave them to go astray, you are left out. Most of the people who were in my unit are senior officers because they took the tint of serious leadership.
The 7th Battalion ended with me. Unfortunately, some of the officers who were below me are now higher than me. I keep wondering why I have been left behind. But I think it could be because I left the army too early. I thought going into politics was more useful and then went into making the Constitution.

Away from that, some people allege that you stole cattle when you were sent to Karamoja and Teso to counter cattle rustlers who had become problematic at that time…
That was [State minister for Relief and Disaster Preparedness Musa] Ecweru. That man, I don’t know. Maybe he lacked explanations. When he saw the press, he started casting claims onto others.
I was fighting cattle rustling and, in fact, I am the one who initiated the disarmament of the Karimojong. Out of which one of my very serious fighters called Eden Mugisha was killed. Ecweru’s unit was the unit that was fighting against government under Peter Otai. I do not know how Ecweru ended up in government, maybe as a way of surrender. And during that time, that is when he said the NRA, which was under Kyaligonza, led the rustling.

There was another one in Hoima. I have a small farm where I went one day and I was told that my herdsman had stolen 45 cows. I did not know his whereabouts. The cows were found in Kyankwanzi and I recovered 48 instead. This man, years later, resurrected saying I had stolen his cows even when I pardoned him on phone. These are the stories that have been reported.
When I came here in 1978, when Amin had expelled the Asians from Uganda, I was one of the beneficiaries of the properties. I went to Bwaise, applied and acquired a piece of land. So three men came and got Bibanja. They were also claiming that ‘that land belonged to us and when Kyaligonza came back from the bush, he grabbed it from us’. I have all the documents of custodian bond stamped by [Finance] minister Matia Kasaija who was the secretary to the land board.

You were a Member of Parliament for Buhaguzi County in Hoima District. How do you see that the cause for which you fought for between 1981 and 1986; issues like bad governance, corruption, impunity, among others, are resurfacing now?
I do not want you to quote wrongly. Dr Kizza Besigye is one of us, Gen Mugisha Muntu is another, Mr Amanya Mushega and many other people in the Opposition are part of us.
I feel bad to hear that all of them are being looked at as enemies. They are just disenchanted people who are not believing in what we were all talking about. If I found Besigye I would not kill him, I would shake hands with him. Now you journalists will say I have joined Opposition.

Besigye was the only mobile doctor, save for Dr Barker. You do not know what happens in our house. Do you know what President Museveni tells Besigye when they meet? If President Museveni wanted to kill him, would he be alive? He is not that kind.
However, things have changed now. You should be considerate because you do not know what secret they are withholding from the country because you were not where they agreed.
What hurt most of us is that some of our comrades were not buried in an honourable way. People are corrupt because they do not have security of tenure; the President has been firing people day-in-day-out because of that.

Did you ever prepare yourselves for the changes, especially in lifestyle, which you say has now come?
We did not know what would happen now. Some of the people, whom [presidential adviser on the media] Tamale Mirundi calls moles, are the people who are spoiling the regime. Most of these people do not know what we discussed in the bush, now they are spoiling the name.
President Museveni has never sent anyone to do things. That is why I tell you that we went to hunt but after getting our loot, I was served unfairly. For example, there is oil in Hoima, why is it not coming out? It is because of some people involving in politics. They are sabotaging it and when it comes, there will be war.

General, what about this talk of you NRA people taking a long time in power. What do you have to say about it?
Why do you ask me that question? I will throw you out of my home. Now you have come to my home, I have looked after you and you enjoyed the good ambiance here. There is no one who is well off who wants to leave power.
If you want quote this, but I know President Museveni would defend me and I know he knows it in his mind. President Museveni is human; he planned to be president when he was still young. Have you ever been at State House in Entebbe and Nakasero? Did you feel the ambiance of the two places?
Now you are seeing the oil is coming, among other things, he wants to be an oil sheik. Would you allow someone to come and take over these things just like that after the fighting?
Now you are here asking me how we have taken long in power, are you a fool? Did you make for me a timetable or programme for me to leave power?

Do you hope to come back into elective politics?
My team is still playing. You cannot chase us, but when an appropriate time comes I will retire. If you people press me, I will hang my boots and go back to Hoima then when the war comes, you will see who will direct you people.