Civil society boss: Bigirimana cannot be a whistleblower, he has to leave

1. How is the campaign of “mourning” for Uganda over widespread corruption going?
The “End Theft” campaign is doing well because we have a number of people who have agreed to move forward with the campaign. Several civil society organisations in Kampala and upcountry are becoming more engaged with the campaign. We had a successful black Monday at Human Rights Network offices after we were stopped by police to go to UMA show grounds. It’s been one of the most covered event in the media and we think this is good for us. People are appreciating what we are doing. But others are asking how the mourning will help to end corruption.

2. Will you stop at mourning and how will this help end corruption because we have seen similar campaigns before and nothing has been achieved?
As civil society organisations, our civil instrument for our protest is limited public awareness. For us, we think as citizens of Uganda, we must take full control and ask our leaders to account. We are tired of corruption. We are saying, no to corruption.

3. How can you lead this campaign when a number of NGOs are corrupt and doing the same thing you are fighting?
It’s true that all of us have got corruption in our organisations. I know that every Shilling in NGO Forum may not be used as it should. But that does not stop me from asking for accountability from government about our public money. You pay taxes whenever you use electricity, water and other utilities. Now, if you are paying taxes, the first thing you should ask is, “are my taxes well spent?” As a citizen, there are two things you do and these are; paying tax and voting. In return, you need public value. If not, you must ask those responsible to explain. We know petty corruption can grow to grand corruption. We know that grand corruption, if not checked, can lead to state collapse. To avoid state collapse, we must say “enough is enough”. Public money should be for public good. We are in a very tricky position. This kind of corruption has been going on for a long a time. We have lost trillions of shillings as a result of corruption. We will reach a point where we will have no money in the State coffers. One of the characteristics of a failed state is failure to provide services to people. If you look at service delivery in this country, it’s limping. Whoever is in charge must do the right thing. Our intention as civil society is not to change government. Our job is to make sure that government works. That’s the most important thing.

4. Why are you scorning government when it’s one that started the fight, exposing the theft in the Office of the Prime Minister?
That’s an interesting argument to say they started the fight and, therefore, they shouldn’t be scorned. But they started the stealing, even they also started the fight. We are happy that they started the fight. The problem is how many fights have been concluded? None. You remember junk helicopters? For 2007 Chogm, the implicated people were acquitted. Talk about any scandal that has been investigated and concluded with serious action. We can thank the government for the job well done, but we want them to conclude the process with good results like recovery of the lost money.

5. Aren’t implicated officials being interdicted and some of them sent to jail?
Yes, [Geoffrey] Kazinda is in jail. But we also need [Pius] Bigirimana to go. Get the money back. That’s when we shall be convinced. The most important thing for us is not to see a court case. Our interest as citizens of Uganda is not to look at somebody in jail. No. Our interest is to hear that Shs200 billion that was stolen has been recovered and is being invested in roads and improving conditions in the hospitals. Running around with Kazinda is interesting, but we are saying, the government should do more than that.

6. Wouldn’t government kill evidence against the implicated officials if Bigirimana, who says is a whistleblower, is tried?
He can talk about himself being a whistleblower. But that’s a contradiction. How can I, as an executive director of NGO Forum, be a whistleblower of fraud committed by my accountant? That’s not acceptable. I’m sure my funders would first tell me to leave office as investigations go on. How can people steal money in the organisation you are heading and then become a whistleblower? Kazinda was under him and Bigirimana was his line manager. Whistleblowing by a line manager is a contradiction in management. He should have stepped aside to allow investigations go on. He continues to call himself a whistleblower and the donors are cutting aid.

7. Should the government consider a quiet fight agaisnt corruption because open arrests of the suspects have sparked controversies and donors are cutting aid and in the end it is people at the grassroots suffering?
We are in a tricky situation because people, who are suffering as a result of this, are not people who are stealing. These people are not cutting aid because government is catching thieves. They are cutting it because they don’t see real action. They are not seeing money being returned. The properties owned by these suspects published in the media should be auctioned. That would bring back confidence. We do appreciate that the CIID and the office of the Auditor General are doing a good job. But we also want courts to do the same.