I hate distinction of First Family – Rwabwogo

QN: Your joining the NRM vice chairperson western region race took many by surprise. What have you been up to lately?

When I finished school, I returned to the farm in order to help my community with improving agriculture productivity. I said this is how you use the word science which comes from two Latin words: Scire ( To know a thing deeply) and Scindere which means to split apart and make easily consumable by someone. School should mean the practical doing of this not to keep in towns, especially in a country with so much unmet needs.

QN: What is your motivation for joining active politics?

The Movement idea expanded from the nucleus of 1967 young university students, to FRONASA in 1972- 1979 and a massive growth in numbers happened from 1981-1986 because of the strength of its ideology. In 1961 when Mwalimu Nyerere opened a country called Tanganyika at that time, if you see the kind of leaders that came there, from Nelson Mandela, Samora Machel to Augustino Neto, eventually our own leader who was  a student Yoweri Museveni, John Garang, everyone went there because the ideology was good. That movement expanded in 1979 and in 1986 and I joined in 1992, I was in university. Since then I have helped in developing and mentoring young leaders and training ideology in institutions. Just recently I have been instrumental in helping find work for young people. I have not sought a position before, I have gone all my way to support this organization but I feel that every generation is called upon to take responsibility or duck it. Those who died to give us peace and stability would be happy if we advanced that peace and stability by improving our economy, for example focus on agriculture. I am running for three reasons: that the party was born, raised, bred by the common person, that common person  is the bedrock of the mass support the NRM has but there is a bit of a disconnect, the NRM is  up there, the people are down. I would like to decentralize authority back to the district, that is very important for me because that is how you look for leaders for tomorrow. Secondly ideology is the only heritage that you leave for young people, what you leave in the child is not as important as what you leave for the child. Buildings can be crashed but ideology, plans cannot go away. I like to teach the Movement ideology in institutions, to formalize it, to use the district as the base for the training so that the founders of the Movement leave a generation that knows those values.

QN: Yoga Adhola, a UPC ideologue has written extensively and questioned whether NRM actually has ideology and argued that your chairman Gen Museveni doesn’t even know what ideology means and just throws the word around.

What is ideology? Ideology is that seed, it is the last thing you fall back to when you are in trouble. Let’s assume you are a traveller lost in the middle of the forest and there are no stars in the sky and suddenly you see a light in the horizon, you go, that light will guide you. The Movement ideology is founded on four values: first, people. In the army the Principle of first strike capability means the weapon immediately available to you and your means to make war at both equipment and personnel level. In the NRM, this capability is called People. People are to the NRM what water is to the body. The Movement wasn’t born in a conference center like Kabaka Yeka and UPC which were born and bred in Kampala just like FDC. The Movement went to the people; was fed, nursed and housed by the people and given fighters by the people. The day we lose those people we will have lost our first capability. Two is broad baseness. In German 1945 when Hitler killed six million Jews, at Nuremberg trials all Europeans came together and hanged people who did that and Germany stabilised and is Europe’s largest economy today. In South Africa the Truth and Reconciliation Commission brought out stories that reunited people to forget the past. The Movement said 'bring your tribe, your party, your monarchy, your colour and let’s forge a new nation'. That is one of the fundamental healing balms you can get for a conflict ridden nation. If you look at our 1986 cabinet, it is a coat of many colours with people like Kayira, Ssebana Kizito, Moses Ali.

QN: The other argument is that the President was only buying or renting support from critical regions and constituencies they appealed to by co-opting those individuals.

Take a look today, the 2012 cabinet, UPC is there with Prof Ephraim Kamuntu, DP is there, Prof Kabwegyere is in, Moses Ali, Sam Kutesa who until 1993 was the secretary general of DP is there. Times change, the principle of inclusion doesn’t change, if Yoga Adhola doesn’t know I am sorry he should go and do some research.  Value number three, one of the things that will remain whether we are in government or outside is a strong and disciplined army, the army of the 1970s would beat you and you say thank you you have not killed me. The army now has people with PHD and the gun was democratized. There are no more road blocks. Finally the real deep water that we run on, the last final oil whether we are in power or not is self-reliance. We are the only organization that said we will build ourselves whether we have support from anyone or not. In fact recently one country just put an advert saying if you don’t support a certain way of lifestyle we don’t give you money. We said well, keep your lifestyle, we will live.

QN: Odrek you know the country was almost reduced to its knees when that donor aid tap was closed. We only began to breathe after the law was struck out.

I have to tell you something interesting, this economy of Uganda contracted 14% from 1976-1981 even when there was a coffee boom under Amin. This economy was $3.9b in 1986, it is now $26b, we haven’t stopped growing even when donor money they have been bringing does come in. When you do a workshop and you call that a contribution it is good, thank God that workshop has paid someone but that is not establishing security of a country. This country has  the most stable investment climate.

QN: You were quoted saying there seems to be a digression from NRM ideology and you seek to contribute to reversion to that ideology.

If you find a pipe producing very clean water, go put some dirt. That dirt will fly off because the water is clean. That water is ideology. Because we have lessened the teaching of ideology and our values definitely we attract people who are not well nourished ideologically and they cause us problems like corruption and intrigue but because you are a mass movement you are like a river, at times you take stones but that doesn’t mean the river should stop flowing or that corrective action shouldn’t be taken. In my opinion I am taking a corrective action, there is need to have a very honest conversation about the future we want to shape for young people. I want to contribute to that debate.

QN: You talked of correction, what in your view are those two or three things we need to correct as early as yesterday?

First the economy, to use Clinton’s term it is the economy stupid. I would like to help house hold incomes come up using our structures. Two the performance of our civil service, to make our institutions efficient to respond to the challenges of the day and lastly to enhance the teaching of ideology, NRM is a beautiful brand that is less engaged with the population.

QN: The other day your former Secretary General Amama Mbabazi talked of nursing a tired nation and incidentally your concern with the economy and civil service form the bedrock of his eight point program but he appears to impute NRM under the current leadership of Gen Museveni is incapable of that corrective action

First I need to make a correction, young people cannot be tired, we are a young nation. Mr Mbabazi has no generational advantage; he is in the same age bracket with the people he is criticizing. Prof Bukenya is my friend, the two or three years he spent in government, I can hold him to an issue called upland rice, I simply cannot hold any issue on that gentleman you talked about, our former SG. That he did incredibly well and will translate into government. I search hard and can't find a theme to hold him to in his days in the NRM. He had a wonderful opportunity to shape the direction and firm up the structures of the Movement but under him, we lost ideological teaching and direction, we reached out less to the masses, our base and we deeply individualized the party. In my view it is not age that matters, age is physical, it is the thinking. The president doesn’t work alone, in fact he has the biggest appointments in government ever, sometimes the people he puts in place are not ideologically nourished to work together and advance the agenda though he takes blame as the leader. In terms of thinking, strategy and providing hope for the country the president has a bedrock he stands on which is credibility with the country. If we have someone in future who has a different generational challenge with a new thinking, the party has structures and that person will emerge.

QN: Did you consult the president and were you cleared by the first family to contest?

I don’t like these distinctions of first family. To say first family assumes there are other Ugandans who are last. This is wrong when you put people on a pedestal so you can easily attack them. You need to disabuse our language of American terminologies our people and yourself hardly understand. I don’t like those distinctions. Why would I need to go and consult the president? I have a wife and children who I have spoken to and they allow me to go and play a public role, the president is my chairman, he uses the structures like all of us to find leaders. If the 2,700 aspirants for MP are going to ask him, how far can we go? Everyone comes from a family. I met a beautiful and dashing young lady at the turn of the century, fell in love, married her, God has blessed us with children and it is our time to serve irrespective of whoever wants to suggest whatever they want to suggest. Everyone comes from a family. If we use that distinction we are doing reverse discrimination which goes against the grain of the Movement.

QN: There is criticism that touches on family rule. You have Museveni as president, his wife is a minister, his son heads an instrumental segment of the army, his brother remains influential even after retiring, his extended family members run several government departments and here comes his son in law. Does this criticism ring a bell?

I think that the president has ably explained this very well and this question is not new. Firstly what you should ask is how did those people come to serve? Gen Saleh was one of our most illustrious fighters; in fact the Mobile Brigade in April 1985 took down an army led by Col John Ogole precipitating the coup of July and the removal of Obote. He was a young fighter who didn’t have the opportunity to school, if he serves is that wrong? Why don’t you question the sacrifice he made then? The first lady had all the forces arraigned against her not to stand including the president himself and she said I am convinced this is the role God wants me to play. She won overwhelmingly; she has served and now is retiring. You are talking about Muhozi, well what training has he not had? Isn’t he entitled to serve? Are you saying because someone is born from a certain family they shouldn’t serve? The question should be how do they emerge? Do they take sacrifices and work for a greater good and they are picked? My name is Odrek Rwabwogo, I have told you my background, I have quietly served all these years, never been at the front, when I serve quietly no questions, when I say I am stepping out in the generation of my time to resolve certain problems, now suddenly I am associated with the first family. We have to disabuse the thinking of some people. Should I abandon my wife so the people of Uganda accept me?

QN: You are looked at with a bit of suspicion, out there people are saying there is this thing the media has been writing about in hushed tones, the so called Muhozi project. Could you be the prophet that makes the way for the coming of the messiah like John Baptist did for Jesus Christ?

(Laughs) Even a monarchy like Buganda kingdom has principles of succession that have been established. Since 1770 the battle between Prince Junju and Ssemakokiro established how a king in Buganda is appointed. How can you tell us in 2015 that there are no established structures to replace the president? The constitution is clear on how he is elected, removed and replaced. This Muhozi project is a creation of the media. I have no idea. It is a figment people create instead of going to work. People who did that should have been helping in the NRM structures, strengthening our structures and engaging with the population to ensure good leaders emerge.

QN: Would you offer yourself at some point for president?

That is really an abstract question. There is freedom for whoever wants to offer themselves for president. My concentration now is to bring significant initiative in how we make our structures at the district and below functional. If I achieve that I will have played my role, I am not thinking of anything beyond that so let me focus on that.

QN: Odrek you are hardly 50

(Interrupts) I am 45.

QN: So at 45 the question of transition is central to your heart. People are jittery that the president clinging on power is taking the nation down the path of political uncertainty that could slide us back to a dreaded past.

Who are the jittery people? These are elites who have no full understanding of where our country has come from and what this president runs on, he runs on a certain type of fuel called people. They elect him overwhelmingly at every election. In my opinion transition shouldn’t be seen at individual level, you limit our options. I see it in three ways; first there is a generational transition, that many more educated, credible people come up and give us alternatives. So a generational shift has happened and we got to watch that and wait on it and do our job on ideological shaping. The second is the economy, when the economy expands we shall see politics that is nonviolent with that 49% of the economy becoming monetized and thirdly, people who start something leave something for young people to build on. I have to admit we are not doing enough ideological shaping in universities and districts; we are a party dependent on the top. As to whether x will be president and when, Uganda is here for hundreds of years to come, there will be many presidents, the question is, what are we doing to manage that transition?

QN: Have you had a discussion either as an individual or family with the president on transition of leadership and the reality that leaders come and go?

Specifically I don’t really have to ask the president what he thinks about transition as a person. I think I need to look at the actions he takes because those speak louder than words. If I see a secretariat run by young people, cabinet and the economic transformation, he is pointing us somewhere; he is trying to figure out how to leave the country in good shape. Leaders will be there, people who are fighting over this seat I am telling you are not serious.

QN: What do you mean by they are not serious?

They are not serious because they think if you remove Museveni you fix things.

QN: Their argument is that Museveni has failed to fix X, Y, Z and the only way to fix that is to change leadership.

Ivan it takes time. In 1994 in South Africa apartheid ended, right? But what ended was legal apartheid; the structural formation of South Africa is still white dominated. Things take time to change. The question is, the people who want this position, what record do they have? I am speaking to you as a farmer transiting into an industrialist because I fixed certain things in the farm. If you are unable to fix chicken, you don’t rare pigs, we don’t see your farm, a demonstrated effort to transform the country and all you say is agende agende agende it makes us very upset because you are not giving us options.

QN: When Museveni came to power he too, didn’t have on his CV the niceties of efforts at economic transformation save leading a successful war. Are you being fair to his competitors?

There is no war today, at that time you needed to take certain sacrifice to bring stability and when NRM brought stability we have seen the transformation that has happened in the counry. Are you telling me you are unable to rare chicken, set up a project for young people other than rioting? I think it is a lie. If these leaders were in this for a calling to transform our country they would focus on the economy and not necessarily this democracy they tell a common man who wants a road, electricity and bread. Democracy without a meal is zero.

QN: Well democracy determines the meal but moving on you are seeking to lead a party whose ceiling is cracked and the walls are caging in. You saw the latest fall out and uncoordinated movement of troops at the secretariat.

When you focus on ideology, the building can crack but we will repair the cracks. In a political organization there are people who are going to be disagreeable.

QN: Let’s underline disagreeable on principle. You have a party whose unwritten rule of thumb is that the chairman is the only man who can have ambition. You know what happened to Okot Ogong, Ruhinda Maguru and now Mbabazi.

Let me tell you something Mr Okuda. Mr Mbaabzi had an opportunity to shape this party.

QN: Odrek this is not about Mbabazi as a person, in any case I have cited three precedents.

But all those go through structures. If you have a structure that brings leaders from bottom to top there is a way leaders are chosen. If you use ambition to replace the law, because I want therefore I come, you are jumping on the bicycle from the horns. Without structures we have indiscipline.

QN: That is true for all other positions save the chairman and presidential flag bearer where the entire state apparatus is unleashed on those who challenge Mzee.

NRM uses two ways; first is consensus. For example we, by consensus, have said in the past that the Vice chairman will go to Alhajj Moses Kigongo and this is how things should happen. Secondly we have competition. No one is stopped from vying for chairman or flag bearer. In fact many of us thought our founding SG would pick nomination forms. That he chose to go another way was an expression that in my opinion, there is a certain level of ideological depth that we need to deal with in the party. Just because you are VP or a big person doesn’t make you ideologically stronger, you search, practice ideology.

QN: Matayo Kyaligonza says your standing will shake cohesion in the party in the western region. What is your comment?

I really wouldn’t want to talk about my hero Kyaligonza but let me say I have been doing work in the Movement since 1992. There was no complaint and the party was not divided. When I choose to offer myself how does that become divisive? Would Matayo be happy if his own child leaves the Movement and has to come in another party because the Movement doesn’t welcome new blood? The Matayo I know wouldn’t be happy.

QN: Now, I was reading Ssemujju Nganda’s opinion article where he argues that the first family is a liability to Uganda, you are living large at the expense of the tax payer and hijacking the state. What do you make of that claim?

I think people like Ssemujju are people we failed to teach some level of ideology. These are young people born and raised in the Movement but have not been shaped in the manner that would help the country. I earn my income from the farm from the sale of milk, I am educated, I have two degrees, five different businesses, now when you say living large I don’t get it.

QN: I see your guard over there is a soldier from the army’s Special Forces Command yet you are a civilian meant to be guarded by a police officer. That is what he means by hijacking the state.

I have a policeman; you can walk to police and pay for three police guards if you want. The spirit with which people say those things is what concerns me, if you want to help Uganda what are those things that have gone wrong in our system that we should correct rather than pick a family and make it a target for attack.

QN: Corruption is a thorn in the body of the system if you are talking of pointing out the wrongs. In 2007 for instance, your company Terp Consult, was at the center of a parliamentary investigation for inflating the bill and unfairly booting 16 other firms that bid for the publicity of CHOGM to favour you

My businesses are the least that do business with government of Uganda for reasons not Nganda is telling lies about but because we truly believe we can do better out. I am entitled to compete for business like any other Ugandan, the fact that I don’t do it for reasons I don’t want to go into now…

QN: You competed in 2007 and were accused of taking advantage of your first family connection to edge out, unfairly, other companies

Rwabwogo has never been on the procurement committee, he has never sat on any of the boards that decide who gets a job.

QN: But you can influence, the reason the anti-corruption act captures influence peddling as a crime…

How do you do that?

QN: By going around waving the first family flag…

Rwabwogo doesn’t pay bribes if you want to hear this. One of the reasons we are not able to get work in government institutions is because we took a stand, if you want  bribe I am sorry I won’t take that job. Being the president’s son in law does’'t give you a job. I went to school. I really hate that paraphernalia of son in law, I really hate it. Ok? Because some Ugandans use that to simply create a storm in a tea cup. Since you have talked of CHOGM, we had a joint partnership with a company that was a leader. Our company was a minority in the entity. What did the tribal group of Nandala do? Nandala and group, these are people who see one side of Uganda, they jumped that institution because they were looking for an Odrek somewhere, I am the one who came out and said why are you searching everywhere? Come and ask me. We went through that process, I have a letter from DPP, IGG, there was not a single harm we did. We were cleared; I have seen stuff online how Odrek washed cars. I never washed cars. I never ever use whatever perceived position there is, whatever I have with my family we work for it and the truth will come out. Time is the best judge.

QN: What is your last word?

I am seeking the support of NRM members so we bring substantial change at the district level, teach ideology and find a way to ensure our party has a firm financial future.