Tumukunde: Officers should be free to quit army

You have been meeting different groups in preparation to run for Kampala Lord mayoral race. What do you intend to fix if you win?
I first want to congratulate Boris Johnson, the former London mayor who is now the new UK Prime Minister. This is very persuasive for some of us. Back to the point, I don’t think that the intention is yet resolved. I’m largely doing consultancy to understand the problems of Kampala. I think, we, the elites, sometimes live a reclusive life and don’t know the problems in Kampala.
I have come to understand that, for example, the central government is not putting in enough [money] in Kampala compared to what they pull out and yet Kampala is the face of Uganda. It is the master bedroom and the face of Uganda. Therefore, what we do in Kampala says so much about what we can do elsewhere in the country.

The other issue I have discovered is the disruption of the law covering the mayor of Kampala. It has seriously undermined the authority of the mayor and denies him the capacity to perform. You have a powerful minister and executive director and yet the mayor is elected and is the third most voted person. If being in power is justified by the vote, then it is a contradiction that the mayor has [no] power.
After President Museveni and Dr Kizza Besigye, the mayor is the third most voted person. It does not appeal to the rules of democracy that someone who has so many votes is being supervised [by] a one Henry Tumukunde who won the Rukungiri Municipality or sometimes is not elected. That is a gazetted contradiction. It affects the running of the city.

Another contradiction I have seen is the executive director (ED) who deals directly with the central government, clearly and categorically surpassing the mayor, the political authority that is supposed to supervise the ED. But that goes back to the first point I made where there is a state of confusion about the laws and watering down the mayoral role.

How has this bad law affected service delivery in Kampala?
Imagine if the Office of the President was being challenged by the law, we would be having a crisis. That’s the point I’m making.

As a lawyer intending to stand, how do you intend to fix this?
I intend to put in my proposals about what I think government should be doing rather than what they are doing.

What are the fundamentals needed to run a city like Kampala?
From the circumstances, I can see that the most unorganised people are “Kampalans.” You go to a market and find some people sleeping there! This is wrong! Even the structure of these markets needs to be changed. But to do that, we must first resolve the issue of land titles of these markets and then look at other things like constructing underground parking.
There is so much space below the surface and there is no law that stops us from constructing parking space for vehicles which can be used for hire. But you also do the offloading of food and the untidy part, especially offloading the food below the surface and the surface is left neat.

On top of that, you can put a day-care centre for the children. Some of these women in the markets are single mothers, they have no one at home to leave the children with and they have [to] carry all their children to the market. You can also have a community centre. And it is not for lack of space. For example, Kalerwe Market with its seven acres and Nakawa with eight, there is so much you can do with this eight acres. The point I want to emphasise is that a big city like Tokyo (in Japan) still has markets. It is because rentals in Tokyo are very expensive. Therefore, to take care of those beginners in life in terms of business and consumption, these markets are put there.

Then, there is an issue of hawkers. Why don’t you create space for them? If [you] pay compensation to make a road, why not create space for them in every seven kilometres out of the city? They keep throwing them off the road. When you push them out and don’t give them space, you are simply avoiding the problem.

Do you intend to stand on the NRM, Independent or Opposition?
The importance of consultation is that you are better off establishing issues at stake and there is quite a lot to first establish.

What have you found out from the consultations so far done?
The consultation has been largely on the problems facing the city and I have quite found a lot on the ground. But also the sides we take in politics is not a big issue. I don’t want to emphasise [political party] colours. Colours are like clothes. They cover a lot individual weaknesses. They tend to disguise the competence of individuals. That’s why I have not spent much time researching on colours. But time will come and we shall decide which way we want to go.

If you were elected, what would be the priorities you start with?
I think the biggest problem of Kampala is planning. Secondly, we must address accommodation for people to find cheaper and affordable accommodation for both business and residence.
More than 75 per cent of Uganda’s economy is generated from Kampala Metropolitan Area. You are aware that 16 to 17 million people are living in towns. Therefore, there is quite a lot to care of and I think the time has come if this matter is not properly addressed, even those occupying higher offices will find it a very tough challenge.

Another issue that has been a problem in Kampala and the surrounding areas is violent crime. Recently, the President issued 10 security measures intended to end this crime but its still persisting. As the former Security minister, what do you think is the problem?
I don’t want to discuss President Museveni’s security solutions because they may not be mine. But what I can also tell is that an organised city is security-solved. For example, there is so much said about security cameras. In addition to that, we need to have digitally mapped roads. In case you have an emergency, you can easily access the scene. All this is planning.
Once you finish digital mapping, you label streets, houses. We should outlive being satisfied with the status quo and this is a challenge to the young people who seem satisfied with their recent jobs and mortgaged vehicles and when it comes to voting. you have no interest in the matter.

Community organisations are very essential in terms of accumulating critical information that can be used by the security to actually map out an area and get to know the security issues.
The second issue is that you can pick intelligence from the masses. But you cannot use untrained people to manage security. When a sergeant is sent to the front, there is a training he has and, therefore, is able to inform the commander about the situation. But if it’s an enthusiastic person but trained, you have a challenge.
Therefore, using masses in managing security is wrong but using masses in raising intelligence is absolutely perfect. Therefore, with my experience in security matters, Kampala would be privileged to have me as their leader.

Are you saying that things are being done [the] wrong way?
Well, I’m sure you want to see if I have the courage to say, yes, some things are being done wrongly. There is always need to process people into jobs and responsibilities.

During your tenure as Security minister, did the issue of insecurity ever come up and what were the issues?
It came up, every day, although the press was focusing how I disagreed with [the then Inspector General of Police Kale] Kayihura. Apart from the press, there were also other internal forces that wanted (army) generals to collide.

Are you saying there was no rift between you and Gen Kayihura?
I know you want to reach there, but I don’t think there was. Gen Kayihura did some fundamental things. One of them is giving confidence to the police and equipping them with the help of the Commander-in-Chief. But again, I must say that I was not comfortable with the way everybody became a security officer. That’s why we had lawlessness in this country. But no officer is perfect.

Is it true your sacking was connected to this alleged fight with Gen Kayihura?
The appointing authority must retain the right to reshuffle. Why he reshuffles is a question you would place to President Musveni, [not] me the reshuffled. But you should know that not all political jobs are by the virtue of appointment. For example, if I continue with my mobilisation, I can find myself a political job at any level.
The political space is open and the deciding factor is the vote. Of course, there are some issues of those who count the vote. They think they are more important than those who vote. But anyway, that’s an issue of debate. There are many political jobs out there for grabbing and I don’t fall short of the expectations of the people of Uganda.

At one time you wanted to start a political party with your friends like Aggrey Awori. Do you still have that plan and intention to stand for president?
But I was a serving officer. I could have had sympathies. There is also one issue where military officers are not allowed to exercise their right to exit the forces. You create an opportunity for such situations. I want to repeat that military officers should be given a right to exit. If you don’t do that, then you open a Pandora’s Box.

What do you think is the problem because we saw Gen [David] Sejusa being dropped from the list of officers who are supposed to retire?
Why don’t you look up for Gen Sejusa and ask him? You can also talk to Gen (David) Muhoozi, the Chief of Defence Forces. But I can repeat that the army should be like any other job. Entry and exit must remain optional. Otherwise, it might be called forced labour. The option to exit must remain wide open.

But the army says for you to retire, you must have served not less than nine years and they have a right to retain you.
That’s attached to training. When you acquire knowledge you shouldn’t have ordinarily acquired, by the virtue of exploiting state resources, you are supposed to spend a period that equals to the recovery of the money spent on you. That apart, I don’t think could be the reason Gen [Sejusa] cannot leave the army.

Did you face the same challenge?
Oh, my God! Why are you asking what you know? It’s a gazetted fact. But I don’t want to go back to history.

Now that you are a free man, do you intend to stand for president?
Politics is like a lift. When you enter a lift, you fairly go up. Political jobs are by law designed to be acquired and achieved by virtue of presenting yourself to an electorate. Depending on which electorate you choose, you qualify to occupy any political job. The only limitation [is academic qualification] and in Uganda, it’s a lot easier and simplified because it is Senior Six. The rest is open.

What do you say about the emergence of people like (musicians) Bobi Wine and Jose Chameleone who are coming to the political scene and seem to be gaining a lot of support?
Bobi Wine [born Robert Kyagulanyi and is current Member of Parliament representing Kyandondo East – Editor] is a young politician who actually like other people I don’t have to mention here, found it necessary to become senior political leaders at an early age. As far as I’m concerned, the bigger issue Ugandans should spend time on is whether he has the capacity to manage the country.
But what I also despise, and I think is extremely wrong, is thwarting him. Why should it be criminal to aspire to be president? I have not tested his competence, but I would want to have a chat with him one of these days if I can find him. As far as I’m concerned, he is a man on the right road. The whole issue is: can he kumalako [does he have that capacity]? But otherwise, attempting and wishing to be president is a very good idea.

You have talked about thwarting his efforts and we have recently seen police stopping Opposition rallies in the country. What do you say about?
We had agreed to talk about mayoral issues. But the fundamental issue is what does the law say? If there are excesses, that falls with the government. If you are abusing the law, that falls with you.
But there is also another factor: are these laws good laws? I’m not sure if all laws are good laws like the famous law that had [former Uganda Peoples Congress secretary-general) Grace Ibingira and others arrested.
I don’t think that was a good law. I’m not sure that the law that waters down the role of the mayor of Kampala is good. The law has to be good and it can only be good if it works for justice of the country and favours everybody, not one interest. The second thing is that if the law is in place, are you respecting it? Lawlessness is incredible.