Govt might have crushed people’s spirits, but they are more determined than ever, says Rubongoya

We have set up modern headquarters and established offices in all regions of Uganda. We have continued to mobilise support for the party locally and internationally. 

We have managed to keep in touch with and support families of our detained, disappeared and dead supporters. Most importantly, we have continued to awaken our people and persuade as many common people as possible to be concerned about the future of their country.

Regarding the next election, we are certainly planning to participate in it if by that time we have not achieved the change we seek. Some people have asked us why we still participate in elections even when we know they are rigged. 

Our answer has been, ‘What are the options?’ We have taken time to study the environment in Uganda and our assessment is that a boycott may not be practical right now. 

However, we do not dismiss the idea entirely. Politics is dynamic, and perhaps one time the conditions will be ripe for it. But as it stands now, even if NUP boycotted, Gen [Yoweri] Museveni will get his friends to run, declare himself winner and, therefore, legitimise himself.

We believe that our participation on the other hand gives us an opportunity to reach out more to the population with our message which opportunity is almost never available outside an election period.

The hope is that the people of Uganda might then be able to do everything within their power to overwhelm the system. But our participation also denies Museveni the legitimacy he badly needs, because then the eyes of the world are on Uganda and able to see the terrible things he does to keep himself in power.

Just like other Opposition parties, your party has always complained about poor planning by the Electoral Commission and unfairness that is allegedly crafted by the State. Has the situation changed?
Nothing has changed. In fact, things have only gotten worse. The poor planning is not by mistake, but rather by design. 

The regime thrives on keeping the citizens guessing. We are in 2024, but you can still hear the talk of constitutional amendments that might change the system of governance. Ahead of the 2021 election, some election laws were amended in 2020. Ahead of the last election, court ordered the Ugandan diaspora and prisoners to vote, but up to now the necessary framework is not in place to operationalise that. All these are by design. 

Election theft thrives in chaos. When the rules are not clear, the register is finalised last minute and the logistics are set in place very late, there is little time to interrogate them. 

We do not hope for any significant adjustment, because again, that is the system Gen Museveni favours because it favours him. That is why our plea is not to Museveni or [EC chairperson Simon] Byabakama, but to the people of Uganda.

From former Democratic Party (DP) leader Paul Kawanga Ssemogerere, to former FDC [Forum for Democratic Change] president Kizza Besigye and now Bobi Wine, all previous election runners-up have claimed victory. If it is true that they are denied victory what makes you think that that will ever change?
What keeps us going is knowing that a struggle is a marathon and not a sprint. 
We have seen people rise to power in other countries after several attempts. We have seen dictatorial systems, even stronger and more manipulative than what we have here, come tumbling down. So you have to continue working hard. 

Ultimately, the burden rests on the shoulders of every Ugandan to bring about change. Yes, government might have crushed people’s spirits using so much violence, but I also believe that our people are more determined than ever.

Let us talk about the state of your political party, what is the force behind the internal bickering inside NUP?
Ordinarily, internal contradictions are healthy for institutional growth. That is if the contradictions are entirely on principle or disagreements on ideas. 

The problem in Uganda’s case is that when you see most of the challenges that have taken place in Opposition political parties, you can trace them back to Gen Museveni. Look at DP which now has a co-operation agreement with NRM [National Resistance Movement]. 

Before that was UPC [Uganda Peoples Congress] where Museveni seems to have installed the leadership he is comfortable with. Then the recent problems in FDC. The contention was on money, which was apparently brought into the party by State House to fight NUP. 

The challenges in our own party revolved around the Shs500m service award. And you have seen the NRM apologists shamelessly rejoicing over their role in sowing discord within Opposition parties. But that is not sustainable. Ultimately, our people must interrogate and understand the source of the problem and deal with that first, because the rest are symptoms.
 
On several occasions, a number of people have accused you and the party president’s brother (Mr Fred Nyanzi) of fuelling internal fights within the party. Is it true that the two of you are using your influence to suffocate dissenting voices within the party?
Who are those people? I have not heard them. However, let me be clear that NUP provides a platform for internal dissent, as long as it is principled. Even us leaders, we do not normally agree on everything. In fact, we disagree so many times, but we are able to continue working together because our disagreements are born out of the desire to build a stronger party that will take power and change the fortunes of our people. 

Many of the things we have done have been partly a result of the feedback we get from the people out there. 

The problem is when some people – who are working for some other forces to fight and destroy the party –pretend that they are being suffocated.

Could there be a rift between NUP and Buganda Kingdom officials?
There is no rift whatsoever. In any case, why should there be such a rift? NUP believes firmly in the empowerment of cultural institutions. Our leaders at different levels, beginning with our president, have consistently expressed loyalty to the cultural institutions because that is our heritage. 

Our leader has expressed his love and admiration for the king of Buganda in word and action as is well known. He is Omubanda wa Kabaka. So there is no bad blood whatsoever.

Just to add, before he started the last campaign, we paid a visit to Bulange and sought the blessing of the kingdom. You have seen us participate in every activity organised by the kingdom. That should tell you how much we respect and revere that institution. But, of course, the State and some other actors have deliberately tried to drive the narrative that we are at odds because of their known, selfish intentions, which I am sure cannot stick.

We have often witnessed party officials, including the party president, addressing Katikkiro (prime minister) Charles Peter Mayiga simply as ‘Mayiga’, in total disregard of etiquette. Does that communicate something that we do not know?
I am not really in position to comment on that. Such a question is best answered by the very people who made the comments. They would understand best the context in which they said that. 
But as far as the party position goes, we hold our traditional institutions in the highest regard. Our call to them, of course, as indeed to the religious and other institutions has been to speak out more about the issues which affect the people of Uganda – human rights violations, land grabbing, corruption, etc.

As a party, you are accused of aiding cyber gangs that target individuals. We have often seen a number of them who identify as NUP members attacking the Kabaka’s family, especially his wife and recently his sister and brother. How come you have not come out as a party to disassociate with the trend?
Whereas NUP is a political party, it was born out of a popular social movement – the People Power movement. So many people subscribe to that movement politically, even when they may have their own views on other issues.

Our duty has always been to state our position and also guide our supporters on what we believe is the right thing to do. 

On July 19, 2022, our president came out on all his social media handles and even repeated it at a press conference, that NUP does not condone attacks and insults on the kingdom. This has been and continues to be our message.

About unrest in the party, what will be the fate of members, especially the MPs who reportedly walked out and those who feel sidelined?
Like I said, disagreements are healthy in any organisation and you have seen us engage some of them to try and get their viewpoint and share ours as well. So there is room for anybody who genuinely wants to continue working with the party. For those who have walked away and chosen to align themselves with the oppressors of our people, I cannot say much about them because they have already walked away and they will get their due reward.
 
In politics, negotiation can be a brutal career-changing affair, and it sometimes benefits the country. In case an opportunity availed itself, would you be willing to engage in a political negotiation with President Museveni?
We have been clear that we are not opposed to dialogue. The only question is what kind of dialogue? Presided over by who? What is the agenda? Historically, Gen Museveni does not have a good record when it comes to dialogue. He simply believes in co-optation. 

His question has always been, ‘How can I apply or use this person or group?’ You have heard even [DP president] Norbert Mao, who apparently negotiated for many things, now begin to cry foul over unfulfilled promises in that negotiation. 

That is why we opted out of IPOD because it was only being used to sanitise the regime, while they continued to brutalise the Opposition. 

We believe that if there should be dialogue, it should involve the people of Uganda and not just a few politicians negotiating for themselves. It should be about the future of our country.

Your party claims that former Leader of Opposition in Parliament Mathias Mpuuga has been targeted because of ‘corruption’ he engaged in at Parliament. Why has the party not taken action against MPs who received the Shs40m and Shs100m which your party president announced to the country?
The challenge was lack of evidence in the case of Shs40m and Shs100m. Even that service award for Hon Mpuuga, it first came as a rumour and there was no way of taking concrete action in the absence of cogent evidence.

It was only when the minutes of the Commission meeting came out and he admitted the same, that action could be taken. When the issue of the Shs40m came about, only two MPs confirmed that they had received it.

They both apologised. Kagabo attempted to take it back and you remember what happened. The rest of the MPs promised not to pick it, and it remains a rumour who picked and who did not. That is because this money was apparently being picked from someone’s home in the night, without clear means of finding out who.
But the party recently asked people who might have evidence to provide it and see if action will not be taken.

Several accusations have been made against the party secretariat and individuals, including the president, of misusing party funds. Has any investigation been done?
That is propaganda. We have tried as much as possible to be accountable and transparent in our operations. We regularly file our financial reports as required by the law. Our main source of funding remains the money allocated by Parliament for political parties.

Whereas NRM gets 75 percent of this money, NUP gets only 12 percent and the rest is taken by other parties in Parliament. But see what we have been able to do with the 12 percent in a very short time. And we could have done much more if we did not have to spend a big portion of these funds trying to assist victims of State repression.

This is somehow personal. How do you feel when people say you are President Museveni’s spy inside NUP?
How can I spy on something, whose founding I contributed to? I was on the table that discussed the formation of the People Power Movement and later NUP. 

However, I am a scholar of politics under Museveni, therefore, it does not surprise me. What the Museveni system does – when they try to compromise you and you refuse – they try to create the narrative that they compromised you. We have seen that with many senior Opposition leaders in the past. 

Incidentally, I hear such stories mostly from NRM operatives. So if I was a spy in NUP, why would the NRM people be the ones spreading that? How would it help their case? 

Secondly, we have some people whose biggest dream in life is to be where I was before I joined the Opposition. To them, life means being close to those in power, because they want material gain.

They cannot fathom how someone who had that access could leave it and join this side with all the risks and challenges. They do not understand that it has always taken sacrifice to change societies and the world. 

Ultimately for us, we judge people based on what they do and not what they say or what is said about them.