‘We are paying councillors without signed minutes’

C………………………. Chairperson
K……………………… Abdu Katuntu
M…………………. Jennifer Musisi
TM……………………........ Tribunal member ( Alfred Okello-Oryem)

K: Did the Authority with the power vested into it by the law make a decision?
M: (pauses a bit before responding) There is a decision being communicated, but in the absence of signed minutes to that effect, it is not a binding one.

K: Can I ask you, did you have a clerk in that meeting?
M: Yes, we had a clerk

K: Did the Authority sit and take a decision?
M: Yes, it sat and took a decision but it cannot be a decision for purposes of legal implementation until the minutes are signed.

K: Did you ever write specifically on that point about that subject ?
M: I don’t recall.

K: You have a weak memory (drawing laughter from the audience).
M: I handle hundreds of documents on a monthly basis and I can’t remember all of them, neither does any of you.

K: Ok, go to Section 56 of the KCCA Act ( it talks about the contracts committee which is supposed to publish summary quarterly reports of all procurements and disposals of the Authority).
K: Ok , has the minister made regulation as commanded by Section 56?
M: Not to my knowledge.

K: Not to your knowledge again. It is not my knowledge, I don’t recall. You have standard answers. So, you don’t know, Madam Jennifer Musisi, the executive director of KCCA, whether the minister has made regulations pursuant to Section 82 of the KCCA Act to regulate publications, procurements and quarterly reports as provided for under Section 56, you don’t know?
M: Not as of this morning

K: Not as of this morning? Ok, let’s go back under Section 56, the contracts committee shall publish all quarterly summary reports of all procurements and disposals as commanded by this section. Has the contracts committee published such reports ?
M: The contracts committee has made quarterly reports

K: No, I am looking at the law and it is very clear, the word is ‘ publish’. Have you ever done so? Remember that you are the custodian of this law.
M: In absence of the regulation, the contracts committee has prepared its reports awaiting for the regulation.

K: Have you published quarterly reports because this is not about the regulation but the publication itself is a command of the Act? Have you published reports?
M: They have been prepared. Define publish? That is how I can give you the correct answer.

K: My Lord, the witness is asking me to define the word publish .I find difficulties in doing that.
C: The lead counsel’s role is to cross-examine and your role is to answer. So, you cannot ask him questions unless you want a clarification.
M: I wanted a clarification, My Lord.
C: No, probably you understand what he means and maybe you probably want to state how you understand it, and then he goes on to say that is not what it means.
M: Much obliged My Lord, the contracts committee has been preparing quarterly contracts reports, and they are available

K: Madam Musisi, don’t try to set your own questions and give your own answers. The questions come from here and answers come from there. But the answers that come from there should answer questions that come from here. And the question I am asking is about one word –publish, which is not me but is in the law and you are the chief custodian of this law called the KCCA Act. If you don’t understand, let us leave it at that and tell us I don’t understand this word publish and on the record we have it that the executive director doesn’t understand the word publish and we proceed!
M: The contracts committee has been preparing reports and the word publish will be defined under the regulation which I don’t have.

K: No, no, publish is a small English word like they will tell you publication of a newspaper. Don’t try to be so clever, this is not something that requires that. Just say we haven’t published and we proceed. In fact, I want to put it to you that you haven’t published. First of all, do you have a contracts committee in place?
M: Yes.

K: Who is the chairman?
M: The chairperson is Mr Charles Ouma.

K: Who is supposed to advise this contracts committee legally?
M: The contracts committee has a composition which is specified by the law and some of the members are people of legal training, lawyers K: Who is the chairman ?
M: Mr Charles Ouma.
K: Does he have any substantive appointment?
M: Yes, he does
K: What is it?
M: Charles Ouma is the deputy director legal affairs.
K: So he doubles as the chairperson of the contracts committee?

M: The contracts committee’s membership is provided for in the law but in a secrete appointment, he is the deputy litigation in legal directorate.
K: Who appointed him?
M: Where?
K: To that position.

M: In KCCA, he was appointed by the Public Service Commission as director legal affairs, in the contracts committee, he was appointed following the procedure in the PPDA Act ,a recommendation was made by the executive director to the Permanent Secretary, Secretary to the Treasury, nominating members of the contracts committee, he approved the appointment of the nominees and Charles Ouma was one of them.
K: We got you correctly, as deputy director of legal affairs, he (Ouma) advises the committee which he chairs.

M: That is not what I said. He is the chairperson of the committee and you asked me whether he has a legal background
K: I didn’t say legal background; I said who advises .That is the question.

M: I will need to check, I can’t recollect!
K: Standard answer, you can’t recollect. But you see, your function is to advise the Authority and organs, yes?
M: Yes, my function is to advise the Authority and organs. I advise the Authority and 10 directorates of different technical capabilities, including the Authority and any other stakeholders. So; I cannot recollect the detail of my advisory on different technical specifications.
K: I hope I will not get a standard answer this time in your testimony and statement, the issue of standing committees arose, yes?
M: Yes, it has.

K: I want to refer you to the fifth Schedule ( of the KCCA Act). Standing committees are established by law, is it right?
M: Yes.
K: Are standing committees policy committees or sectorial which we sometime refer to as oversight committees?

M: They are ... I need to first get the specific provision (time is given to her to peruse the KCCA Act).
K: So, having read that, are the standing committees, policy committees or sectorial committees?

M ( She keeps quiet for a while )
K: Madam Jennifer Musisi, I need an answer.
M: I am reading the law so that I give you a right answer.
K: Ok, revise the law.

M: They oversee the performance of the directorates and are responsible for different sectors in the city –that means to that extent , they are sectorial. They also make reports to the Authority, review bills for ordinances which is policy.
K: No, they can review bills of a particular sector. For example, if it is a Bill on treasury services, If it is revenue collection or legal as provided for under the different directorates.
M: They are both policy and sectorial.
K: That is not true!

M: Standing committees are sectorial. I want to put it to you and let me quote the law, look at the fifth schedule, Look at 1(2), may you please read it.
M: ( she reads the section)
K: Meaning, that they oversee a particular sector.
M: Yes, they also work on policy coming from the directorate – so ,I maintain that they are both sectorial and policy, that is my view.
K: Ho, are you saying that policy originates from your directorate?

M: We as technical people, we have a duty to do a technical analysis.
K: Ok, I don’t want to cross examine you on the interpretation of the law but, let us continue with the Authority structure. Do you have a KCCA Authority structure?
M: We have a staff and political structure and that form a KCCA global structure.
K: Who made this structure?
M: Public Service Commission, sorry, it is Public Service Ministry
K: In consultation with who?
M: In consultation with other agencies of government, including KCCA.
K: Including yourself ?
M: Yes.

TM: Which of the other structures, I only got the staff structure
M: The other one is the political structure.
K: By the way, who heads the KCCA Authority?
M: That is a question before courts of law and I will not answer that.
K: You don’t know who heads the Authority ?
M: I don’t know.

K: Ok, the record should capture that the executive director of KCCA doesn’t know who heads the Authority. Honourable members of the tribunal, I am showing the witness a memorandum of the Lord Mayor from the director Human Resource and Administration KCCA, Ms Jennifer B. Kaggwa, which is dated March 15, 2012.
Madam executive director, can you confirm that, that memorandum comes from your directorate Administration and Human Resource?
M: I believe so.

K: You go to the second page and read the last paragraph (this outlines the core functions of the office of the Lord Mayor). This is what is supposed to govern you, isn’t it?
M: As who?
K: Isn’t this your document?
M: No, it is not a KCCA document, it is a Ministry of Public Service document.

K: It is your document. I am not saying that you are the author, but it is what is supposed to govern you. So, is this your document?
M: It is a structure of KCCA.
K: So, from the current legal regime, do you really think there is need to redefine the roles of the Lord Mayor as stated in the memorandum?
M: Basing on the current chaos (at City Hall), I agree entirely

K: There is a problem with the legal regime?
M: Yes.
K: A big problem?
M: Yes.
K: Do you have evidence that this document came from Public Service?
M: I have the evidence, but I don’t have it with me.
K: What evidence do you have? Was it forwarded by a letter to you?
M: Normally, official documents are forwarded by a letter from the respective ministry.

K: You know with KCCA , I can’t be sure about normalcy.
M: In this case, it was forwarded from the public service ministry
K: By a letter.
M: Yes.
K: I think at the time, not now, when you are no longer appearing, you will be in position to provide that letter.
M: I will provide it.

K: You did say that according to you, there is no viable instrument to appoint members of the Public Accounts Committee, Yes?
M: Did I say that?
K: Yes.
M: What I said is that to my knowledge as of this morning.. There is no.
K: From the Authority.
M: From the Authority? I did say, I saw this correspondence from the Lord Mayor to the minister responsible for Kampala Capital.

K: And,why were you saying that the appointment was not done as envisaged under the law?
M: The appointment of this body (she pauses a bit) … May I have the benefit of your document, I think it has been withdrawn
K: The letter about the public account committee?
M: Yes (the document is passed on to her)

K: No, you said you saw the document, the meeting took place, the meeting resolved was taken, but something was lacking?
M: The appointment of that committee is a process but the process was not completed

K: What was the process?
M: The minutes had to be signed, the minister had to approve the recommendation

K: Ho, the minutes had to be signed? If the minutes are not signed, there is no decision taken?
M: There is no decision from me as the accounting officer to act on, for example, facilitating the committee as you had asked earlier

K: Let me ask you , Have the standing committees been meeting?
M: No
K: Have they ever met?
M: Yes
K: Are there signed minutes?
M: No
K: Have you ever paid them?
M: Yes
K: When they have not signed minutes?
M: Yes
K: And you pay?
M: Yes

K: So, what are you telling us about the minutes accounting officer Madam Jennifer Musisi? (attracting laughter from audience )
M: The accounting officer is paying because payment of councillors is detached from signed minutes or otherwise. I am paying councillors on a directive by the minister for Kampala to pay them money

K: You are paying councillors money and you are citing signing minutes as very, very important and they have met, get the money, walked away and they have not signed but you are paying , accounting officer Madam Jennifer Musisi?
M: The accounting officer is paying these political leaders basing on the provisions of the law.

K: No , the law I know doesn’t say that. You have been citing this issue about minutes, minutes. Let us go back to the minutes. You have been paying when the minutes are not signed and you paid the entire year. Even the meeting that elected them as members of standing committees, minutes were not signed but were paid? Answer please.
M: It is true.

K: True! And you have paid them and you have sat in meetings with them, without minutes signed?
M: I pay them basing on the direction given to me by my minister under Section 77 of the Act.

K: You see Madam Jennifer Musisi, I know it will eventually catch up with you and it has. Just relax, This issue of minutes you are using it conveniently , where it suites you, you recognise these people, you facilitate their meetings, there are no minutes signed ,there are no instruments and the meetings are concluded and you proceed as usual. When it doesn’t suite you, you cite the issue of unsigned minutes . Let me put it to you, civil servants should act ethically, unfortunately you are not.
Let me ask you another question about this story about minutes and signing. Have you had budgets as KCCA?
M: I have had a budget.

K: How many budgets have you had?
M: There was the 2011/12 budget, 2012/13 budget and 2013/14 budget.
K: How many budgets are those?
M: Three.
K: Are there any signed minutes?
M: There are no signed minutes.

K: And you are acting on that budget?
M: Yes.
K: And you are raising issues about minutes?
M: Yes.
K: And on other issues but not that one?
M: Yes, and I can tell you why.